Handloading for 1-7 twist AR .223 Wylde

[mac86951]

So I "built" an AR for F-class AR. 20" barrel, 1-7" twist, and I'm making loads for the 77gr Sierra Match King.

testing from 22.6 to 23.8 I found that velocity increased from 2540s to 2630s where pressure signs showed for anything over 2630.

I also found that my hand-loading techniques need some help, my extreme spread for 5 round groups was consistently 80fps, or 3% over velocity. I'll see if more careful techniques get that down a bit. For now, I found a nice node around 23.4gr of Varget, loaded to 2.260" with Velocity at 2580fps

I did however, have occasional flyers up to 2660 with one pierced primer out of the group. Odd, I'll make sure the cases clean up and see if this one has a larger flash hole.

-Mac

 

[Clancy]

Get some VLD type steel mags so u can get that bullet seating extended to relieve pressure.
Your velocity isn't bad and your load is quite acceptable.
Do you use magnum primers? I would! Adjust charges accordingly.
I would use RL 15 but I guess 15/Varget is ford/chevy.

The magnum primer will clear up that ES provided you are throwing good charges? What scale?

 

[navyrad8r]

+1 for what clancy said...
you are getting close, Varget, RL15, TAC IMR4064(crunchy) consider those russian magnum primers. if you are not hung up on the 77s think about the 80s or 80.5 bergers!! 24 gr RL15, russian mag primers, 15 thou jump in my service rifle works in MY rifle nicely at the 600. i would suggest stretching those rounds out maybe some VLD action? the 77s i shot on active duty were from black hills about ~24gr of tac or RL15, they were crimped primers and cannelure bullets with crimp. I did well with both NATO and Wylde chambers. I hope this helps, Happy Holidays,
Cheers,
Doc

 

[cmillard]

first off, don't load them to magazine length as you can not shoot out of a loaded magazine in f-class. what range will you be shooting? don't worry about sd/es in a .223 gas gun as you will pull your hair out trying to get below a certain number. also, shoot 10-20 round strings instead of 5 shot. you will be shooting 20 shots for record anyhow so 5 shots will do you very little. if i were you, use that 20 inch barrel to get to know the sport then switch to a longer barrel when you burn that one up. you can also run a bolt carrier weight from competition shooting stuff (Tubb) as that will help alleviate some of the noticeable pressure issues. hope this helps

 

[mac86951]

Awesome input guys, thank you.

First off, here is why I'm concerned with Mag Length:
http://ziarifleandpistolclub.com/Documents/F-ARFlyer.pdf
The local rules dictate mag-fed ammo.
That said, I've got 500 of the SMK 77grs, 300 Hornady 75grs, and various others too. (meaning JLK on order).

So far my favorite Non-mag length is the Hornady 75gr A-max (cheap for how well it flies).

I'm starting with the 77grs, and initial ladder testing showed a good node at 24.2gr of Varget. Since some manuals show
this as a max load, or over max. I did another test today around 23.5gr which indeed is another node. I'm weighing using a chargemaster 1500, and I'm using Federal 210M primers.

I'll certainly look for some RL15 for my next powder. I'm using Varget as a default, I've also got some AR-Comp to try out (21.8gr seems nice but no velocity data yet).

I'm shooting this out of a White Oak Armament Wylde chamber, and by pressure issues, I'm seeing an ever so slightly cratered primer on some of the higher loads, which is why I dialed back to 23.5gr. I'm glad to hear my velocities are right around what most expect. I should add, it was 48°F today @5000ft, when the measurements were collected.

-Mac

 

[Clancy]

I'm working in that upper node myself. What primer are you using? If its soft that may be why it's cratering. 24.2 is not SUPER stout.

 

[Beau]

2660 is moving pretty good with the 77s using Varget or Re15. I know, some people drive them faster, but I've never had much luck doing that.

Be very careful when you weigh your charges and your ES will go down. Maybe not like a bolt action, but you should easily get an ES in the teens. Try Rem 7 1/2 primers or Wolf SRM or 223s. Primers are mostly about getting a good lot #, but I've had pretty good luck with those.

 

[mac86951]

Current Complete Load:
77gr Sierra MK
23.5gr Varget,
Federal 205M
Brass - Various.

This produced the 2580s, and fliers as previously noted.

Experiment:
1: Matched brass (with careful neck cleaning) - This should eliminate my 2660 fliers
2: Matched brass with matched bullets - We'll see how this affects the s.d. and e.s. from above

Note: Matched Brass = FC '09 brass (I have tons) trimmed to 1.750" VLD chamfered and deburred, with flash-holes deburred.
Cases sorted to +/- 1gr (not that its needed, but worked out to nice sets of 50 anyway). Inside case necks will be brushed with brass brush before priming.

All brass is being FL sized, and I'm setting up the die using my RCBS precision mic to push shoulders back 0.004".

-Mac

 

[cmillard]

i would get rid of your FC brass. i threw out all of mine. i ran into pressure problems with all FC brass. turns out that stuff is HEAVY!!!! it has small internal volume. switch to LC brass if you can. you may want to give aa-2520 a try, as you can get some outstanding velocity with that powder.

 

[Clancy]

Yea man throw out that FC stuff. You dont need lapua, get you some winny or LC and sort it to a grain.
I love lapua but it's f class, right? I think u will be fine without it.
SWITCH TO A MAGNUM PRIMER!!!!
Stop using federal brass.
Switch to a magnum primer!

Adjust charges accordingly!

 

[bigedp51]

In two different AR15 forums they are complaining about Federal brass being soft and thinner with primer pockets stretching and popped primers.

Below are thicker Lake City cases on the outside left and right with a thinner Federal case in the center.

Food for thought when reloading below, military 5.56 cases are harder than commercial cases.

 

[mac86951]

Thanks for the info. I'll use up the federal brass I've got with a slightly reduced load, and when I do buy more brass, I'll look to get some good stuff.

-Mac

 

[mac86951]

First F-Class AR match this morning. 1°F at set-up, and 38°F by end of match.

I shot 23.5gr Varget with velocity of 2660 as measured out of my rifle using the 77gr Sierra Match King.
21.8gr of AR-Comp was measured at 2170 in same rifle/bullet/primer combo.

With a zero @ 200 yards, I had to come up 15 minutes to sight in, and my first string was a 182 1-X. Then the wind started
pushing my second string to a 164 1-X.

-Mac

 

[mac86951]

Oh, BTW, here is the data gathered on loading:

Range Brass (multiple head stamps) all cleaned, sized, trimmed, and flash-hole's deburred:

Loaded with 69gr SMK at 25.0 Varget at mag length: Velocity 2900fps, ES 50fps, SD 30fps. Much better than the data I was getting before, with nothing sorted.

Matched Brass (weighed within 1gr) trimmed, deburred, etc as above...
77gr SMK Varget 23.5 2660fps, ES 30fps, SD 15fps This is what I used during the match

Same as above, but this time putting in weighed bullets: 2662fps, ES 30, SD 15.
(basically same as above). Difference is the weighed bullets pulled a tighter group for me today, but was also the second string when I had more practice. I'll be looking more into this later.

Unmatched brass, Un-weighed bullets, same case prep, only using Nosler brass and 21.8gr of AR-Comp:
2670ps, ES 30, SD, 13fps. (same again).

-Mac

 

[mac86951]

Ok, this is probably going to warrant another thread in the competition section, however, today was my 2nd ever F-AR match. Again 600 yards.
Temperature starting in the low 40°s and up to the mid 50°s by the end of match.

To summarize our format, I was in first group today, so the first string was shot at ~8:30am, then I'm off to pull targets for second group to shoot BOTH of their strings. When complete, I returned to the line to complete my 2nd string. This is in effort to keep the early morning shooters wind conditions mixed with the late morning shooters.

Wind was a vector sum of ~5mph right to left with about a 2-3mph toward the shooter. It changed almost to an opposite by noon (see the format above to know now why we do this). Noon - tail wind of ~3mph, and right to left of approx 3mph, but far steadier than the early am wind.

Overall score @ 600 yards: 375 5x. Two other competitors today in F-AR, one shot 372 4x, another shot 392 9x (new local record).

OK enough about how the match went, my topic for further discussion is thus:

600 yard shooting, I see two philosophies from reloaders for this specific competition. Again, to summarize: 600 yards, 1:7 barrel, Mag Length required.

#1 which seems the popular here, Load for Velocity! Several guys are shooting the 77gr upwards of 2850fps out of their match chambers (24" barrel). (Old N140, or H4895).

#2 which seems more popular to long-range shooting in general: Load in an accuracy node for your barrel and rifle. I may be mistaken and there may be an accuracy node at 2850 for the 77gr bullet, but I'm not overpressuring it to find out.

My load for today's competition:
77gr Sierra Matchking (others are using 77gr Berger, or 77 Nosler).
Same Brass lot, which was matched by weight (I had to sort it somehow).
Federal 205M
23.4gr Varget
2650fps average (20" barrel).

I found the load by ladder testing and Chrono work. 23.4 gives 2650fps average,
Vertical grouping at 230 yards was best between 23.2 and 23.5 for my rifle.

Obviously if I keep practicing with my current load, I'll do just fine. Score today showed that. Hypothetically, however, at 600 yards the 2650fps bullet will drift 6.2MOA in a 10mph wind (38.7"). The same bullet at 2850 (200fps faster) will drift 5.7MOA (35.7"). As far as scores go, that means a difference of the diameter of the X-ring, so without any sight adjustment it will make an X into a 10.

From a competitor's standpoint, would you rather have the velocity and risk Vertical dispersion from loading/powder charge difference, or would you rely on your shooting abilities to time the wind correctly? As you can see in 10mph wind, you're going to need to set some clicks in the scope anyway right?

-Mac

 

[Rtheurer]

Accuracy first and learn how to read the wind. You will be a better shooter for it. Seems everyone tries to buy points with there wallet instead of going to the range and learn the fine art of wind reading... Its hard I know, but you will be a better shooter for it.

Your doing it the right way.... Stick with it. Even if its cold as heck out.

RussT

 

[Roarke]

Curious - are you limited to a 20 inch barrel?

 

[mac86951]

Curious - are you limited to a 20 inch barrel?

No, we're not limited in barrel length, it just happens that I have a 20" barrel, I'm happy to have received it as I ordered mine in July when AR barrels were starting to get rare.

-Mac

 

[infantrytrophy]

First F-Class AR match this morning. 1°F at set-up, and 38°F by end of match.

I shot 23.5gr Varget with velocity of 2660 as measured out of my rifle using the 77gr Sierra Match King.
21.8gr of AR-Comp was measured at 2170 in same rifle/bullet/primer combo.

With a zero @ 200 yards, I had to come up 15 minutes to sight in, and my first string was a 182 1-X. Then the wind started
pushing my second string to a 164 1-X.

-Mac

Mac,

Thanks for the info.

Just to clarify, is the velocity indicated above with AR-Comp a typo? I'm thinking it should be about 2670 fps, not 2170.

It looks like the correct velocity is in your next post after that one, post # 13.

Not picking nits, just want to avoid confusion with loading data. I have found that AR-Comp is a great powder. It has worked very well for me in .223 and 6HAGAR space guns.

Randy

 

[mac86951]

Typo indeed! Thanks for catching that, it should be 2670 for my 20" barrel.

I am liking AR-Comp to the point of ditching Varget and switching to it, though I don't have tons of data otherwise. Another I'll try is CFE223.

-Mac