Hand vs machine annealing

[TaperPin]

Ok accuracy crowd, since everybody seems to test everything why can I not find anything in the archives about machine annealing improving groups over hand annealing with a torch?

The argument for machine annealing is it‘s faster and creates a much more uniform anneal, and ”If you’re going to do something it has to be done right, dang it.” Low volume reloaders don’t need motorized Dillons and, maybe, we don’t need auto annealers.

I’m all for an automated tool, but teaching kids how to reload I honestly can’t tell them there is some target test somewhere that shows an improvement, even after boasting about my friends that test everything. Teaching them to develop a knack for questioning why and testing when possible, someone will have to help me out here.

 

[Evlshnngns]

I watched a video years ago of a record holding shooter using a metronome, torch, and a drill. It will come out as good as you are at doing it.

I built an induction annealer with help from here and snipershide. Not a bad time to teach the kids some bad ass science.

 

[Jager]

I personally think annealing is way down the list of things that matter. I'm inclined to think that once you've got pretty much everything else covered, annealing - if done accurately and consistently - might bring a very small gift to the party. Emphasis on "very small." And only after a whole bunch of other things are completely nailed down.

If one does get to that point, I suspect only the very best annealing practices would make a positive difference.

 

[Ned Ludd]

Reloaders generally don't post anywhere close to all of their testing results. Further, I believe it would be difficult, if not impossible, to demonstrate a significant difference between brass annealed by a machine, and brass annealed "by hand", at least, if the person annealing by hand knew what they were doing and paid careful attention during the work. I'm also not sure the arguments about being faster and more uniform are necessarily true, at least if your talking about an [automated] torch-based annealing machine. If you're looking for a test comparison of induction annealing versus hand annealing, you might check under "Research" here: https://www.ampannealing.com/downloads/, or give them a call. My gut feeling is that you would have to find the specific individual that has actually done the comparative test about which your asking, generated a clear and definitive result, and is willing to share that result. That might be a fairly tall order.

With respect to teaching new reloaders, I would point out that there are many things we do as reloaders for which there is minimal or no "proof" that they are actually of benefit. This occurs largely because some things we do are fairly difficult to compare head-to-head, apples-to-apples. Nonetheless, we do them because we feel more confident that they are providing some benefit, even if that benefit may be hard to quantify and demonstrate statistical significance. A proper education in the reloading business should include mention of this.

 

[quest450]

excellent reply /\ /\ /\ /\

 

[Bottom Fodder]

What Ned said / if things you do gives you confidence then go far it.

 

[Webster]

Ok accuracy crowd, since everybody seems to test everything why can I not find anything in the archives about machine annealing improving groups over hand annealing with a torch?

The argument for machine annealing is it‘s faster and creates a much more uniform anneal, and ”If you’re going to do something it has to be done right, dang it.” Low volume reloaders don’t need motorized Dillons and, maybe, we don’t need auto annealers.

I’m all for an automated tool, but teaching kids how to reload I honestly can’t tell them there is some target test somewhere that shows an improvement, even after boasting about my friends that test everything. Teaching them to develop a knack for questioning why and testing when possible, someone will have to help me out here.

If you and your rifle are not capable of shooting very tiny groups you probably won't see any improvement. The purpose of annealing should be to get uniform neck tension and good case life. I only anneal to keep the necks from cracking. Even if it affects accuracy very few of us shoot good enough to see improvement. I have two rifles that shoot no bigger than .400" for varmint hunting. That's good enough for me. Been annealing for many years with a hand held propane torch. Many very small group records were set before anyone even heard about annealing. Seems like it's about 10-15 years since it got popular. Some people will say they see an improvement and some say they cannot. If you want accuracy buy an expensive barrel, the best bullets and get the action bedded properly. It cost a lot of money to get a very accurate rifle. I am very familiar with annealing I was a metallurgical lab tech for 45 years. I have about every article published on annealing and did my own annealing studies in the lab. Annealed many case necks and measured hardness. Many accurate annealing studies have been put up on this website but apparently no-one looks at them or believes them.

I worked with a PHD metallurgist that was a consultant to the copper/brass industry. He told me when the brass glows orange it's at 1050F. Depends on your interpretation of how bright the orange is?

You keep seeing basement scientist saying anneal to 750F. No-one seems to know where this number comes from. All published data generated by College labs shows no hardness change at 750F for as long as 15 seconds. I believe my annealing only stress relieves with very little if any hardness change. Let the flames begin.

ADDED Later:
If you put 750F Tempil-Lac paint on a cartridge case to indicate when to remove the heat the following happens. If you assume a six second anneal to reach 750F.

You are at :
250F for 1 second,
350F for 1 second,
450 for 1 second,
550 for 1 second,
650F for 1 second
One more second to reach 750F.
If you assume 750F is the proper annealing temperature, you are at 750F for a fraction of a second.


450C = 842F. All the data in the chart is 450C. The shortest time presented is 30 seconds at temp.

 

[TaperPin]

If you and your rifle are not capable of shooting very tiny groups I would only anneal to keep the necks from cracking. Even if it affects accuracy very few of us shoot good enough to see improvement. I have two rifles that shoot no bigger than .400" for varmint hunting. That's good enough for me. Been annealing for many years with a hand held propane torch.

That’s been my take on it since the 1990s when we were heating necks up with a torch and tipping them over in water filled cookie sheets. I’m glad to see someone with your background takes a practical approach to it.

 

[TaperPin]

With respect to teaching new reloaders, I would point out that there are many things we do as reloaders for which there is minimal or no "proof" that they are actually of benefit. This occurs largely because some things we do are fairly difficult to compare head-to-head, apples-to-apples. Nonetheless, we do them because we feel more confident that they are providing some benefit, even if that benefit may be hard to quantify and demonstrate statistical significance. A proper education in the reloading business should include mention of this.

Well said.

40 years ago as the teenager watching my mentor, the times he annealed cases was quite interesting, but only every 5 firing to prevent split necks. I enjoy teaching how to spin cases by hand and watch the color change - what kid or adult doesn’t like heating metal with fire. An automated annealer would take some of that fun away.

 

[CharlieNC]

I didn't start annealing in search of improving accuracy, but to eliminate a deterioration. Suddenly I encountered major deviations in seating depth, clearly associated with seating force variability. Annealing brought both back to consistently.

 

[karrarararararar]

I bought an Annealeeze because I can load it up with brass and multitask while it anneals my brass. Saves a bunch of time.

 

[old codger]

The only real benefit that the average shooter will get from annealing is extending case life. That is my only reason.

 

[Ranger188]

Eric Cortina did a video on this subject and not sure if F class John did one too.
It does help with neck tension consistency.
At close range, or very low volume shooting (hunting) might not see much benefit.
This has been argued here before, between those who don't and those that do anneal.
If you don't get a consistent heat and high enough, your not annealing.
That's why most will go with a machine of some sort, to be more consistent.

 

[piie]

The machine (induction) is more of a convenience for me personally - if you are sold on annealing per-se, then yes, you want to at least *think* you're doing it right each time. Something like the AMP does away with any guessing (one-crocodile, two-crocodile...), and arguably is also perhaps "safer" - at least on my workbench - flames and powder and all that.

 

[nmkid]

Like many, I also anneal to prolong case life. Especially when reforming for a wildcat. Getting to a point where a case is fully reformed means you have some extra time and work on every case.

 

[MikeRu]

I’m in full agreement with the OP, we could use some simple data just testing seating pressure SD’s after annealing by various methods —sorry if I missed it, I’m sure it’s probably out there somewhere and I probably saw it and forgot about it.

I do “manual” annealing after each firing, using propane torches and metronome, all equipment from anneal-rite.com (attached).

It’s not expensive and the primers you reload with are probably much more dangerous than the propane torch— I keep a fire extinguisher close by.

When I skip annealing it seems like I get variation in seating pressure (K&M arbor press with a force pack and guage installed) from one reloading session to the next.

I would say if your seating pressures within one reloading session are +/- 10%, such as 30 lb +/- 3 lbs for my 30 cal, and if they stay at 30lb after several firings, then you’re good to go. If not then try something different.

I’ve been able to get that by heating for 7-10 sec until 750F Tempilaq changes color, or maybe just a second longer. I may not be “annealing”, but so far all I care about is consistency in seating pressure.

And accuracy has been competitive on occasion in both F class and BR, including 1k yd.

If I get richer I’ll spend some more $ and get the Amp.

 

[Tesoro]

#1 If you use $$ Lapua Alpha Peterson etc then it pays to anneal, if only benefit is extended case life. #2 Tempilac is a waste of money

 

[dcali]

I don't anneal at all, and my rifles are more than capable of winning F class matches. Don't concern yourself with small problems. Chase the big ones. if hand vs amp is the biggest problem you're considering, you are well into national championship level accuracy.

 

[Bottom Fodder]

I don't anneal at all, and my rifles are more than capable of winning F class matches. Don't concern yourself with small problems. Chase the big ones. if hand vs amp is the biggest problem you're considering, you are well into national championship level accuracy.

Thank you sir, well stated

 

[D-4297]

I have been annealing for about five years now , as it was brought to my attention that it would make my cases last longer , and be more consistent , regarding interference fit , ( Neck Tension )....It also has made my "Bump" more consistent , to the point that I can control shoulder bump to within .001 on the majority of my brass
Not every piece , but the majority , by about 98% . I can live with that .
I now have over thirty reloads on my roughly 350 practice Brass , and the only issue has been gradually expanding primer pockets , where I then use the Ginex primers , till they go over-sized for them . The more consistent your cases , the more consistent the scores . Less than stellar S/D's run around 7-1/2 to 8 , and average is around 4 - 6 , so I know the problem is not the brass , or the load , but the loose nut behind the trigger .