Hammer Forged Barrel - Pros and Cons?

[Phil3]

My Howa 223 action/barrel has a hammer forged barrel. I read some place that BenchRest shooters wouldn't touch these due to perceived stresses from the hammer forging that could never be adequately relieved. True? Are there any inherent pros or cons to a barrel made through hammer forging?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aCMzyNHkjpk - Interesting video on the process.

Phil

 

[jonbearman]

The only pro is the company can produce more barrels cheaper. It is all about the dollar. Con,they just arent the most accurate barrels but in stock form some actually shoot very well but not up to par with hand made custom barrels.

 

[VaniB]

Yep, internal stresses is the concern. If your rifle shoots to your likes then that's what matters, right? Personally, I would only buy a rifle with a hammer forged barrel for hunting. I'm not saying that hammer forged barrels can't shoot sub 1/2"MOA.....just that I will not buy it if I seek target accuracy.

As far as what BenchRest shooters prefer, I think cut rifled is the hands down preference.....hence why Krieger, Bartlein, and Brux are much sought after. My personal satisfaction is shooting 1/4" MOA 5 shot groups at 100 yards and believe many a fine button rifled barrel can deliver that. (Hart, Lilja, Pac-Nor, etc) But if I competed and groups in the 1's mattered, then I would not want hammer forged, and would gravitate to cut riflied barrels over button pulled.

 

[Ing. Michael W. Mayerl]

My Howa 223 action/barrel has a hammer forged barrel. I read some place that BenchRest shooters wouldn't touch these due to perceived stresses from the hammer forging that could never be adequately relieved. True? Are there any inherent pros or cons to a barrel made through hammer forging?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aCMzyNHkjpk - Interesting video on the process.

Phil

1) hammer forging is the most expensive technology because worldwide there is only one manufacturer of hammer forging machines and price start at 1,3 Mio €. The cheapest method is button rifling.

2) hammer forging is the most accurate manufacturing method. In serial production it`s no problem to hold a tolerance in diameter within 0,01mm = 0,000394". It`s also possible to make the barrel inside diameter conical by controlling the hammer force - for example 0,01mm lower diameter at the muzzle, to rise accuracy

3) Stress in the material can be removed by stress relief heat threatment after hammer forging and after contouring

4) When contouring a hammer forged barrel, the inner diameter is not changing / not rising compared to button rifled barrels. That safe a lot of lapping time because the inner diameter of button rifled barrels will rise at the muzzle when turning thinn contours


Nearly every big firearms manufacture use hammer forging to make barrels: Remington, Ruger, SigArms, Sauer+Sohn, Steyr, HecklerKoch, Glock, Beretta, Heym, Ferlach, Baikal.....

But i`ve never find a company who has a tool to make 6mm barrels with 14" twist and perhaps thats the reason why hammer forged barrels are not used for bench rest.

I have learned, that nearly every barrel can shoot right when he is made right and stress reliefed.

 

[Raythemanroe]

Ing. Michael W. Mayerl,

wow, I feel the air blowing and It feels like a stiff breeze right up my back side! There is night and day difference between Hammer forging and cut or button rifled barrels that are hand lapped! Lets just say if hammer forging created a barrel with the same tolerance (not) the tooling marks are still in a non parallel with the bore and creating fouling and bullet jacket issues a long with many inconsistencies. Ruger has purchased there own machines now to hammer there own barrels so I would expect there is more then one company manufacturing with hammer forged barrels.

short little clip showing the obvious:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hf9zZqn00CA

 

[Hippy]

I must agree with the Hammer forged bbl being the least expensive to manufacture ---A few years bac -Believe it was in Precision Shooting they tested all three barrel procedures and the Hammer Forged had respectable results. I have always been a strong advocate of cut rifling bbls BUT for the most part they are VERY SENSITIVE to seating depth more so than Button Rifling and hammer forged bbls .
If hand lapped the Hammer Forge bbl may shoot and be competitive as stated the machinery cost is the big drawback.

Jim

 

[BigDMT]

My Howa 223 action/barrel has a hammer forged barrel. I read some place that BenchRest shooters wouldn't touch these due to perceived stresses from the hammer forging that could never be adequately relieved. True? Are there any inherent pros or cons to a barrel made through hammer forging?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aCMzyNHkjpk - Interesting video on the process.

Phil

1) hammer forging is the most expensive technology because worldwide there is only one manufacturer of hammer forging machines and price start at 1,3 Mio €. The cheapest method is button rifling.

2) hammer forging is the most accurate manufacturing method. In serial production it`s no problem to hold a tolerance in diameter within 0,01mm = 0,000394". It`s also possible to make the barrel inside diameter conical by controlling the hammer force - for example 0,01mm lower diameter at the muzzle, to rise accuracy

3) Stress in the material can be removed by stress relief heat threatment after hammer forging and after contouring

4) When contouring a hammer forged barrel, the inner diameter is not changing / not rising compared to button rifled barrels. That safe a lot of lapping time because the inner diameter of button rifled barrels will rise at the muzzle when turning thinn contours


Nearly every big firearms manufacture use hammer forging to make barrels: Remington, Ruger, SigArms, Sauer+Sohn, Steyr, HecklerKoch, Glock, Beretta, Heym, Ferlach, Baikal.....

But i`ve never find a company who has a tool to make 6mm barrels with 14" twist and perhaps thats the reason why hammer forged barrels are not used for bench rest.

I have learned, that nearly every barrel can shoot right when he is made right and stress reliefed.

Well there's someone obviously affiliated with a company that uses hammer forged barrels

Hammer forged barrels will never be up to par with high quality button or cut rifled custom barrels...EVER. There's just no way that beating a piece of metal around a stick can make a barrel with benchrest accuracy.

 

[GSPV]

That bottom line is that, all attributes considered, there are no competitive barrels that are hammer forged.

We can get them from different barrel smiths. We can get them button rifled or cut rifled. There is even one maker that doesn't hand lap.

But none are hammer forged.

 

[stubbicatt]

I have found that my CZ550 with the CHF barrel doesn't metal foul. It is 308 caliber, and maybe 308's don't foul, I don't know. It is not a bench rest rifle, nor am I a good enough shot to be able to tell the difference, but I marvel at its ability to repel copper.

That said, my F Open rifle has a Brux...

 

[ReedG]

There's always a line between hunting/varmint rifles and full custom target rifles, and ne'er the twain shall meet. Some of the most accurate factory rifles to ever show up at our egg shoots are hammer-forged barrels. The difference between 1/2 MOA and "zeroes" is what cut-rifled, hand-lapped barrels are all about. In my experience all the rifling methods used in factory barrels are capable of producing accurate hunting rifles. I've had Savage barrels that were such junk that they would pull tufts off the cleaning patch -- yet they won me several egg shoots. There aren't very many Krieger, Shilen, etc. barrels on factory rifles.

For the OP, comparing a Howa to a benchrest rifle is like comparing a Chevy to an F1 race car. There is no level you can compare them on. A properly bedded Howa .223 with a capable load and shooter should be capable of 1/2 MOA groups at 100/200. A Krieger cut-rifled barrel, properly contoured, chambered, threaded and installed will cost more than the Howa did.

In my opinion, the factories are producing rifles to make money. Of course they are looking for the least expensive way to form a barrel capable of "deer hunter" accuracy and keep the price of the firearm as low as possible. A top-quality cut-rifled barrel would be totally wasted on a run-of-the-mill factory hunting rifle without a "trued" action or target trigger, especially when dropped into the current-style flexible crap black stocks.

Hunting rifles is hunting rifles; target rifles is target rifles ... vive la difference!

 

[DOGCAPPER]

Hammer forged barrels change internal dimensions when the outer dimension is changed (turned).LT

 

[Rustystud]

I read this post, then I checked my shoes because I smelled something.

You can have all the hammer forged barrels out their. I am not aware of any that are not OEM barrels or found on military productions rifles.

I'll stick with stress relieved, drilled, reamed, pre lapped, button or cut rifled, stress relieved, post lapped barrels, contoured and final stress relieved. (There are some differences in the process between manufactures.)

The cost of most OEM factory barrels is less than $40.00. The cost of premium button or cut rifle barrels is between $235.00 and $400.00. I believe you get what you pay for.

Nat Lambeth

 

[mikecr]

Hammer forged barrels change internal dimensions when the outer dimension is changed (turned).LT

This is true. But HF barrels change in the opposite direction of buttoned. That is, when you turn down a section of HF barrel the bore actually shrinks there. With this HF barrel performance is enhanced by contouring, providing choking toward the muzzle, and wha-la, factory barrels shoot good enough.

In lots of 20 or more, LW will make you a HF(or any other type) to exact specifications throughout. This spec needs to be captured someday from a hummer measured with radiography. But it'll never happen by chance..

 

[Hal]

Were the barrels on the early Sako 6 PPC's made buy hammer forging ?

They are some of the best "factory" barrels.

Hal

 

[JDMock]

Hal, the Sako's did indeed have hammer forged barrels, but they were lapped before they were hammered. Good shooting....James

 

[Ing. Michael W. Mayerl]

But none are hammer forged.

Thats because a hammer forging machine is very expensive. The small custom barrelsmith have much cheaper cut rifling machines - most of them are Prat+Whitney and many many decades old or much cheaper button rifling machines.

Here in europe we use more hammer forged barrels because there are enough companys who offer them.

Well made there is no difference if a barrel blank is hammer forged, cut or buttoned but a hammer forged barrel blank can be made within much lower tolerances and so the custom gunsmith safe a lot of lapping and calibrating time.

The only big dissadvantage at hammer forging is the twist. It can`t be changed - it`s fixed by the hammer mandrel and this mandrel is very expensive. Thats a big benefit for cut and buttoned.

 

[Raythemanroe]

But none are hammer forged.

Thats because a hammer forging machine is very expensive. The small custom barrelsmith have much cheaper cut rifling machines - most of them are Prat+Whitney and many many decades old or much cheaper button rifling machines.

Here in europe we use more hammer forged barrels because there are enough companys who offer them.

Well made there is no difference if a barrel blank is hammer forged, cut or buttoned but a hammer forged barrel blank can be made within much lower tolerances and so the custom gunsmith safe a lot of lapping and calibrating time.

The only big dissadvantage at hammer forging is the twist. It can`t be changed - it`s fixed by the hammer mandrel and this mandrel is very expensive. Thats a big benefit for cut and buttoned.

I can't drink the juice, it's against my moral code! Why would the military purchase it's sniper rifle barrels from small non hammer forged barrel makers?

http://www.hartbarrels.com/downloads/Conservationist.pdf

Why would the bench rest community buy expensive hand lapped barrels when they could just leave the crude HF one on there guns? I'm sure there is no sense in a custom action! I want one of these production HF barrels that is gonna break the next world record! I should be shopping at Walmart for that next hummer of a barrel!

 

[Phil3]

Interesting responses here. First, I am not necessarily a proponent or opponent of hammer forged barrels..., only asking pros and cons to further educate myself on this kind of barrel.

It is true that hammer forging cost per barrel is low..., AFTER the huge investment for the equipment necessary to produce the barrel. Even if small companies preferred hammer forging (not saying they do), hammer forging is not an option because of the exorbitant equipment cost. It should not automatically be assumed that company “X” does not use hammer forging because it is inferior. It certainly could be because of that, but also because of equipment costs.

"...The video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hf9zZqn00CA shows dramatic differences between a Remington and Lilja barrel...".

Remington barrels are apparently hammer forged, and the video certainly looks bad for that barrel making process. But, it is also known that hammer forge mandrels must be in unworn condition and kept clean. Failure to do that, and the worn tool and any debris are hammered right into the bore. I can’t speak to whether that Remington barrel is representative of hammer forging or not or more representative of Remington quality control. Is that a new barrel or one that has seen careless cleaning rod use? Would a new unused Sako TRG-XX hammer forged barrel look as bad?

“…For the OP, comparing a Howa to a benchrest rifle is like comparing a Chevy to an F1 race car...”.
I never compared the two, and am fully aware of the differences.

“…In my opinion, the factories are producing rifles to make money…”. ALL manufacturers and companies, from Howa to Krieger Barrels are producing their products to make money. In this case, the customer base is different. Howa certainly has the resources to make barrels any way they want to, but obviously has chosen to stick with hammer forged.

“…If the reamed barrel is thoroughly lapped BEFORE the hammer forging, then an acceptable barrel is formed. If, however, the mandrel is placed in a non-lapped barrel; the circular tool marks will then be "ironed" into the bore. This will lead to a barrel that is less than acceptable for accuracy work…”. From what I can find, hammer forged barrels have their bores honed to a very fine finish before being hammer forged.

"...Why would the military purchase it's sniper rifle barrels from small non hammer forged barrel makers..".
As a corporate procurement professional, I can say with confidence, decisions on who to procure from are not solely based based on performance. There are many other factors that are considered.

With regards to hammer forged barrels suitable for the likes of hunting rifles and other less precision shooting needs, Sako uses such barrels in the TRG-22 and TRG-42. I don’t know how well or poorly these shoot, but from what I see, they do pretty well.

Very informative. http://www.firearmsid.com/feature%20articles/rifledbarrelmanuf/barrelmanufacture.htm

I would like to see what a borescope shows in my Howa barrel. The cost of the Hawkeye is pretty high for a guy (me) out of work right now, so that will have to wait. All that said, when the Howa barrels wears out, it will be replaced with a cut-rifled barrel, my personal favorite. My AR-15 uses a Krieger cut-rifled barrel as well.

Phil

 

[Steve Blair]

Ing. Michael W. Mayerl,

wow, I feel the air blowing and It feels like a stiff breeze right up my back side! There is night and day difference between Hammer forging and cut or button rifled barrels that are hand lapped! Lets just say if hammer forging created a barrel with the same tolerance (not) the tooling marks are still in a non parallel with the bore and creating fouling and bullet jacket issues a long with many inconsistencies. Ruger has purchased there own machines now to hammer there own barrels so I would expect there is more then one company manufacturing hammer forged barrels.

short little clip showing the obvious:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hf9zZqn00CA

[br]
Ray, [br]
I've visited both Steyr and H&K Oberndorf and saw their barrel making operations. Michael is right that GFM, from Steyr, Austria is, as far as I know, the only manufacturer of rifle barrel hammer forging equipment. I have borescoped barrels in both facilities and they do not remotely resemble the barrel in Lilja's video. Regardless, most hammer forged barrels must be straightened and stress relieved. At H&K, those barrels that came off the GFM forge straight, were segregated for use in PSG-1 sniper rifles. If the bore is properly honed, the interior finish is both extremely smooth and very hard, due to cold working against the mandrel. [br]
I'm not trying to say that they should be used for benchrest and I'm not giving up my Brux, Bartlein and Krieger barrels, but a hammer forged barrel can be made to very high quality standards. All the small arms barrel making methods: broach, single point cut, button (push or pull), ECM and hammer forging, can produce an accurate barrel.

 

[Phil3]

Why would the bench rest community buy expensive hand lapped barrels when they could just leave the crude HF one on there guns?

Well, for a multitude of reasons, including wrong twist, length, weight, caliber. I want my next Howa to be 6mmBR, but they don't offer that, so the barrel has to be replaced.

Please don't automatically associate the TYPE of manufacture with the QUALITY of the product. It is entirely possible to make crappy (or excellent) button or cut-rifled barrels, just as much as it is to have variable quality in a hammer forged barrel, or any other product for that matter. Is HF technology so primitive that even at its best, it is simply not possible to produce a barrel that is superior to the "crude" barrel on stock guns? We will never know, since there is no one that I know of that has tried making a "high end" HF barrel. It could be said that no has tried to make the high end HF barrel because of some perceived acknowledment that HF barrels can never measure up to other technologies. But is it that, or possibly that HF barrels manufacture is suited to large deep-pocket companies who have little interest in niche markets, such as BR barrels? Not saying what is correct, just asking the question.

Sako makes the TRG-XX series of rifles, all of which use hammer forged barrels. These are not BR rifles, but few would say the barrel is "crude".

I'm sure there is no sense in a custom action!

Actually, I am seeing more and more questioning of expensive custom actions vs tuned up factory actions. The custom actions sure look and feel nice though.


Phil