H4895 and 80.5 gr Berger question

[rmist]

I will pick up my 223 F TR rifle tonight !!! Can't wait !! My question...
With H4895 powder, 80.5 gr bullets, Win brass, and CCI 400 primers....what powder charge would you start ? I am planning to seat just to the jam for all the powder test. Then going in up to .015" and out to maybe .020" jump in .003" increments. The powder has me guessing where to start. This is in a 30" Brux barrel 7 twist bolt gun. What MV should I expect with the 30" barrel?
Thanks again

 

[MrMajestic]

Rmist, I realize it's not the question but sounds like a job for Varget. JMHO

 

[Scott Harris]

H4895 is a GREAT powder for 223 REM and 308 WIN. I use it for a wide range of bullet weights: all the way up to the 90VLDs in 223 REM.

 

[MrMajestic]

Scott, Varget is a GREAT powder also! ;D

 

[Laurie]

rmist, nobody can make a particularly sensible and relevant reply without knowing what your COAL is with the bullet just into or out of the rifling. With the fairly lengthy 80.5gn bullet, throating is important as the resulting COAL and bullet seating depth have a considertable effect on combustion chamber capacity in this small case, hence the charges that can be safely used and the velocities they produce.

Brass choice is important too in this respect. Winchester is amongst the higher capacity makes which is good.

Taking two extreme COALs with the 80.5gn Berger, here are the max charges that QuickLOAD calculates for the bullet plus H4895.

2.260 COAL (as per SAAMI) .................... 22.5gn / 2,897 fps

2.450" COAL (~ optimal throating) .......... 23.6gn / 2,938 fps

These are calculated to produce SAAMI Pmax of 55,000 psi, but most FTR shooters will run their 223s nearer 60,000 psi.

H4895 isn't at all a bad choice and should work well. Varget, Re15, IMR-8208 XBR, and Viht N150 are alternatives that are also well matched to this combination, but won't produce quite as high MVs, Re15 aside - but go for group size first and foremost. (Re15 is a good performer in the cartridge with heavy bullets, but is too temperature affected for most US competitors - not quite such an issue for me in the chilly British Isles.)

 

[rmist]

Thanks again... I should've put the free bore in the original post... The FB is .097" so I will be able to seat them above the shoulder junction. I have Varget as well. I asked about H4895 because I have that as well and wanted some numbers to try along with the Varget. Looking at my reamer print... the bolt face to the 45 chamfer is 1.772" which I thought was a little long for a 1.750" trim length. I called PT&G and they said it's SAAMI spec. The neck is .2515". With the long neck area I believe that the actual FB would be the .097" plus another .012" (extra length in chamber) would be .109"....meaning the 1.750" plus .010" equals 1.760" with .012" extra in the chamber .... Would that be correct? It will have plenty of room to seat long. Side note... I do have some Lapua brass as well.

Laurie...or anyone else wanting to give it a go...what would the max be for Varget with Quick load? With optimal throating? I just got the rifle last night and haven't had a chance yet to make a dummy round to see what OAL is. I might get a small window tonight to check. Other life duties may play out until tomorrow night.
Thanks again

 

[Scott Harris]

Scott, Varget is a GREAT powder also! ;D

Absolutely agree and I have plenty of that also. But several times now, Varget was supposed to be the best powder according to "the book" and H4895 ended up giving lower SD and better velocity. Try them both if you can.

 

[barefooter56]

rmist,
Start is 19.5 grains
Max is 21.7 grains
APPROX velocities are 2492 to 2757 FPS
APPROX fill ratio is 102%
Per Berger manual
We suggest you start on the lands and work back in .005 increments at THE LOWEST POWDER CHARGE LISTED FOR THE BULLET/POWDER/CARTRIDGE YOU ARE TESTING PLEASE. Then work your load back up in 1/2 grain increments until you get to 2 GRAINS BELOW MAXIMUM then drop to 1/10th grain increments. If you have any more questions please contact us either here or at techsupport@bergerbullets.com. Thanks for using our bullets!

 

[Brians356]

Start is 19.5 grains
Max is 21.7 grains
APPROX velocities are 2492 to 2757 FPS

Not challenging this data, just it's curious that Hodgdon lists the following for 80-gr bullet and H4895 (24-in barrel):

Start: 21.5 gr @2578 fps
Max: 24.0 gr @2878 fps

Even allowing for 0.5 grain bullet weight difference, and any net case capacity differences, the two sets of figures are miles apart (Hodgdon's starting load is essentially Berger's max load.)

Can anyone explain this large a discrepancy? The Hodgdon bullet is 80-gr MatchKing, and COAL is 2.550".

 

[Keith Glasscock]

a .300" difference in seating depth will make a huge difference in min and max charges.

 

[Brians356]

a .300" difference in seating depth will make a huge difference in min and max charges.

Fair enough. But "barefooter56" wrote "fill ratio is 102% " which (to me) means a compressed load, which would tend to indicate the bullet seated deep, and no other clues to seating depth were provided.

So how did you calculate a .300" difference between Berger's and Hodgdon's bullet bases? Again, not disputing, just seeking clarity.

 

[jsthntn247]

Work up to 25.2 grains of Varget and 24.5 Grains of H4895, you won't be compressed with either. I shoot 24 with 4895 and 24.5 with Varget and the 90's. Mines throated longer than yours but the bullets allot longer also. This is with Lapua brass as well.

 

[ericbc7]

You might try IMR 4166. I have a hundred of the 80.5 Berger's and plan to try em with this powder.

 

[barefooter56]

brians356,
All the loads listed in our manual are based on magazine length cartridges. This is so that IF someone does load one of our long bullets to magazine length they wont blow up the rifle. Its a safety thing. What most people over look is the statement in italics under the COAL " OPTIMAL PERFORMANCE MAY BE ACHIEVED IN YOUR RIFLE AT A DIFFERENT COAL. SEE PAGE 148 FOR DETAILS. Our next manual will make things more clear. Hope this helps!

 

[Brians356]

brians356,
All the loads listed in our manual are based on magazine length cartridges. This is so that IF someone does load one of our long bullets to magazine length they wont blow up the rifle. Its a safety thing. What most people over look is the statement in italics under the COAL " OPTIMAL PERFORMANCE MAY BE ACHIEVED IN YOUR RIFLE AT A DIFFERENT COAL. SEE PAGE 148 FOR DETAILS. Our next manual will make things more clear. Hope this helps!

Thanks. It does not shed much light on the huge disparity between Berger and Hodgdon data for similar (if admittedly not identical) bullets, since my assumption is that Hodgdon also limit COAL to magazine length - most if not all publishers do, for the very reason you cite. "1. Though shalt not disquiet legal counsel."

Could you possibly provide both BOAL and COAL for the H4895 data you cited?

 

[Laurie]

Hodgdon also limit COAL to magazine length - most if not all publishers do, [Brians356]

Hodgdon doesn't nor do any other manual compilers other than Berger. In fact, I have considerable doubts as to how Berger made viable test loads up at 2.260" COAL as most 80s simply cannot be seated that deeply - the ogive is pushed inside the neck so it has nothing to grip on usually. In any event, loads data for 80-90gn bullets at the SAAMI COAL of 2.260" is useless as nobody in their right mind would sensibly try to load these bullets at that length. In fact, they may be worse than useless as they may confuse the inexperienced handloader to try this crass behaviour.

If you go back to Hodgdon, its data for the four heaviest bullets show COALs as:

77gn Sierra MK ............ 2.260"
80gn Sierra MK ............ 2.550"
82gn Berger BT ............ 2.375"
90gn Sierra MK ............ 2.380"

The first makes sense as the 77s are all designed for loading to magazine length. The 2.550" for the 80 likely goes back to this being the length that Colt HBar ARs were throated to in the early days of the AR-15 as a competition rifle. Later better chambers such as the Wylde ran at shorter freebores. The 2.380" or thereabouts COALs of the 82 and 90 are possibly the minimum OALs that provide neck grip on the bullet.

In any event, Berger's 2.260" COAL for the 80.5 and Hodgdon's 2.550 for the 80 do make a significant difference in usable max loads.

Run them and the two bullets through QuickLOAD and here's what the German software miracle worker says:

(1) 80.5 Berger BT / 2.260

Cartridge : .223 Rem. (SAAMI)
Bullet : .224, 80.5, Berger LRBT #22427
Useable Case Capaci: 23.420 grain H2O = 1.521 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.260 inch = 57.40 mm
Barrel Length : 24.0 inch = 609.6 mm
Powder : Hodgdon H4895

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 1.0% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time
% % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms

-10.0 90 19.53 2484 1103 39813 6132 94.7 1.342
-09.0 91 19.75 2510 1126 41081 6200 95.1 1.323
-08.0 92 19.96 2536 1150 42390 6266 95.5 1.305
-07.0 93 20.18 2562 1173 43742 6330 95.9 1.287
-06.0 94 20.40 2588 1197 45137 6393 96.3 1.269
-05.0 95 20.62 2614 1221 46578 6453 96.7 1.251
-04.0 96 20.83 2640 1245 48066 6512 97.0 1.234 ! Near Maximum !
-03.0 97 21.05 2666 1270 49602 6568 97.3 1.217 ! Near Maximum !
-02.0 98 21.27 2691 1295 51189 6623 97.6 1.201 ! Near Maximum !
-01.0 99 21.48 2717 1319 52828 6675 97.9 1.185 ! Near Maximum !
+00.0 100 21.70 2743 1344 54522 6725 98.2 1.169 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+01.0 101 21.92 2768 1370 56273 6773 98.4 1.153 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+02.0 102 22.13 2794 1395 58083 6819 98.7 1.138 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+03.0 104 22.35 2819 1420 59954 6862 98.9 1.123 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+04.0 105 22.57 2844 1446 61889 6903 99.1 1.108 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+05.0 106 22.79 2870 1472 63891 6941 99.2 1.093 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
+Ba 100 21.70 2862 1464 64999 6564 100.0 1.089 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
-Ba 100 21.70 2581 1191 44458 6564 92.5 1.274


(2) 80gn Sierra MK / 2.550"

Cartridge : .223 Rem. (SAAMI)
Bullet : .224, 80, Sierra HPBT LR MatchK 9390 G7 Litz
Useable Case Capaci: 27.303 grain H2O = 1.773 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.550 inch = 64.77 mm
Barrel Length : 24.0 inch = 609.6 mm
Powder : Hodgdon H4895

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 1.0% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time
% % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms

-10.0 86 21.60 2571 1174 40192 6946 96.3 1.327
-09.0 87 21.84 2597 1198 41424 7018 96.6 1.309
-08.0 88 22.08 2623 1222 42692 7088 97.0 1.292
-07.0 89 22.32 2649 1246 43997 7157 97.3 1.274
-06.0 90 22.56 2675 1271 45341 7223 97.6 1.257
-05.0 91 22.80 2700 1295 46726 7286 97.9 1.240
-04.0 92 23.04 2726 1320 48151 7348 98.2 1.223 ! Near Maximum !
-03.0 92 23.28 2752 1345 49619 7407 98.4 1.207 ! Near Maximum !
-02.0 93 23.52 2777 1370 51132 7464 98.7 1.191 ! Near Maximum !
-01.0 94 23.76 2803 1396 52689 7518 98.9 1.176 ! Near Maximum !
+00.0 95 24.00 2828 1421 54294 7570 99.1 1.160 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+01.0 96 24.24 2854 1446 55948 7619 99.2 1.145 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+02.0 97 24.48 2879 1472 57652 7666 99.4 1.130 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+03.0 98 24.72 2904 1498 59409 7710 99.5 1.116 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+04.0 99 24.96 2929 1524 61220 7752 99.7 1.102 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+05.0 100 25.20 2954 1550 63086 7790 99.8 1.088 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
+Ba 95 24.00 2941 1537 64227 7330 100.0 1.082 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
-Ba 95 24.00 2671 1267 44630 7465 94.3 1.263


Hodgdon also quotes the case make, Winchester, and I increased the case capacity in the QuickLOAD simulation from the program's default 28.8gn 'water overflow capacity' to 30.0gn which it will be at the very least. (My minimum SAAMI chambers produce fireformed Lapua Match brass with 30.6gn capacity.) The 1.2gn capacity increase from 28.8 to 30gn reduces the calculated peak pressure by ~4,000 psi. Case choice in 223 is VERY important and unthinking transfer of a load worked up in a roomy thin-walled example to a heavy lower capacity type can have serious consequences.

 

[Brians356]

Laurie,

Did you glean the Berger COAL from their published data? (I don't see that figure in this thread.)

That COAL of course answers my question - how could the min/max loads be so different from Hodgdon's?

And it also answers my (still answered) question to "busdriver": "So how did you calculate a .300" difference between Berger's and Hodgdon's bullet bases?"

 

[Laurie]

Yes, Berger shows every 223 COAL as the SAAMI 2.260" in its printed Reloading Manual. For the 80/80.5, 82 BT, and 90 VLD this is asinine! (For the 90gn VLD, that's over three quarters of an inch of bullet seated inside a 1.76" long (external dimensions, considerably shorter inside) case.

 

[amlevin]

Start is 19.5 grains
Max is 21.7 grains
APPROX velocities are 2492 to 2757 FPS

Not challenging this data, just it's curious that Hodgdon lists the following for 80-gr bullet and H4895 (24-in barrel):

Start: 21.5 gr @2578 fps
Max: 24.0 gr @2878 fps

Even allowing for 0.5 grain bullet weight difference, and any net case capacity differences, the two sets of figures are miles apart (Hodgdon's starting load is essentially Berger's max load.)

Can anyone explain this large a discrepancy? The Hodgdon bullet is 80-gr MatchKing, and COAL is 2.550".

I recently worked up a super load using 80.5 Fullbores and guess what, the Berger data was right. I found my perfect load right at Bergers suggested max. Used a seating depth .020" back from a snug jam (engraving on the jacket JUST starting).

Bolt action with 26" Benchmark 1:7, 3-groove (canted), chambered in 5.56 NATO Match, MTU profile.

 

[barefooter56]

brians356,
COAL is 2.260 and the Bullet overall length (BOAL) is 1.083 for our 80.5 grain .224 Match Fullbore bullet.