I am wanting to know if someone could tell me the ways to go about becoming a smith. The closest school is in St. Louis or Chicago. STL is about two hours away and Chicago is around four hours. Is there a more time effective way or is that my only option? There are a few gunsmiths around me but nothing full time.
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Gunsmith school?
- Thread starter Josh11
- Start date
dksac2
Retired Gunsmith, Retired LEO
I went to the Colorado School of Trades, it was a great school, I loved it.
There are other good schools.
My wife was very supportave, found a full time job there and we moved, I got a student loan.
I went to school during the day, fighting shop lifters every night working at a super K Mart.
Any gunsmithing school if you really apply yourself will make you a decent beginning smith, but not a full fledged gunsmith, best to work for a good smith afterword, then go out on your own, there is just too much you have to know. You will not be a qualified gunsmith graduating from any school no matter what they tell you.
I worked for a very good old smith before going to CST, it was a huge help, he also had gun repair manuels from the manufacturers that they stopped producing some years ago, I copied at least 8, 4' binders of info from him and bought every gunsmith book available, many on e bay at a savaings.
A good library is a lifesaver.
Nothing but time, experience and some good guidence when new will make you into a smith, just not enough time to learn more than the basics at gunsmithing schools.
Until you have been a smith, most have no idea just how much you really have to know.
A very good basic knowledge of how guns work will help you figure out guns you have not worked on before.
If possible offer to work for a smith at no pay as I did and try to find a machining class you can attend before going, you have to be a good machinest.
It's not an easy road, but it can be done, I did it and built up a good business. Started the web site www.savagegunsmithing.com, specializing in accurizing Savages, built the business up pretty good by doing good work and giving great service.
Hurt my back badly, had to retire. Gave the web business to a friend, master gunsmith, he has done very well with it.
You will never get rich, the start up costs are great, the costs for tooling, materials and consumables is there every month and then uncle sam. It costs far more than most realize, every tool is $40.00 to $100.00 or more.
You have to have a true love for guns because it is a labor of love, you can make enough to live OK if you have a wife who works and who gets insurance for the family, but don't expect to make a good living from it. One smith can only do so much work and charge so much.
If you decide to do it, have a wife who works and gets benifits for the family, get a full time or part time job, open in the afternoons, evenings and weekends. Have your shop so people cannot see where the work is done, mine was not like that and until I got my fill sized lathe, mill etc, I had more than a few people walk out because they expected to see a fully equipped shop, even though I could have done what they needed.
Do what you can and find a good smith to farm out what work you cannot do, take the work in, mark it up a little, you get the customers that way.
In time, you will gain experience, equip your shop and do well.
It takes years to become a very good smith. Know your limitations, read everthing you can, I spent a great deal of money on books, old one's new one's, gunsmithing, machine work etc, every book I could find, you get something good from each one. Don't expect to find any books on repairing newer guns, you had better know how guns operate and have a good mind for figuring things out. Wreck a gun, you pay for it. I never did, but had to buy a few new parts, not many thank God.
You will be working on guns all the time, even once you have gone full time, by then you should have a backlog of work. Your friends will be out shooting and hunting, you will be working on guns.
It takes time to build a good reputation, mess up just a few guns and word spreads like wildfire in your area, it can kill a business.
When I retired, I sold a lot of my equipment and tools, but kept enough to do work on my guns, bought a small lathe and mill, drill press and now I just work on my own guns, I am having a great time buying fixers and restoring them. Now I have real fun.
Many fail, even after going to school. Whatever you do, try to find a smith to work for after getting out of school, it's hard to do, most don't have the money to pay for additional help, you can go to work for a manufacturer and be a parts installer, not much fun.
Yes, I'm trying to talk you out of it. Almost all the younger students without life experiences, skills and knowing how to run a business failed. You can never forget it's a business, not a hobby or you will fail.
If you are very motivated, have the means to keep a roof over your head, you won't make any money for at least 2 to 3 years by the time you have equipped your shop, love guns, maybe you can make a go of it.
It's a tough way to make a living, but if you can it is very rewarding, I loved it. I got there, but it was not an easy road. I got some good breaks working for tha good smith before and after attending school. By the time I opened my own shop, I knew enough to not ruin guns, fix them, modify them, accurize, rebarrel, make my own parts from scratch and keep my customers happy, became a pretty fair but not expert machinest. Farmed out bluing and parkerizing until I got my own set ups.
Not everyone is so lucky.I was very good at figuring out what was wrong with firearms because I took the time to really find out how they work. Got all 4.0's in the repair section of school, finished earily and became a student instructor the last month and a half. Told the head instructor I wanted the hardest guns to fix, no easy one's. he gave me a shot and I proved myself to him, got the worst of the worst, only way to learn, many younger students just wnted easy guns so they could get to the part where they build guns for themselves, I doubt even one of them ever became a smith.
I was a very good smith at the end, but not a master smith, very few of them around.
As I said, you will never know just how much you have to know, how much equipment you will need, the time it takes. It takes far longer to figure things out correctly when new than after you have been doing it for some years and time is money, you have to keep fixing, modifying etc guns and get them out the door as fast as you can, without taking any short cuts, they must be 100% right to make a living, you have to knw what makes a gun safe and when it's unsafe, you can get someone killed with what you don't know or if you do something wrong. No time to shoot the breeze and have a drink with your friends till after hours. You will work 10 to 12 hours a day, sometimes 7 days a week, at least 6, that is once you have built up a customer base.
It's the worst and best job one can have. Family life will suffer, don't count on 2 week vacations or too many days off when you don't open the doors because you want to do something else. That is not to say you cannot do those things, but all that you promised you will have their guns done by a particular date may have to get pushed back, do that too many times, they will go somewhere else. Don't discount prices, but never gouge someone, be fair and honest. If a gun that should take 1/2 hour to fix takes 4, most of the time you eat the expenses unless there are other curcomstances and then you had better calll the owner.
Think about it hard, if married, you had better have an understanding wife who loves you very much or you won't stay married long.
My Best, John
There are other good schools.
My wife was very supportave, found a full time job there and we moved, I got a student loan.
I went to school during the day, fighting shop lifters every night working at a super K Mart.
Any gunsmithing school if you really apply yourself will make you a decent beginning smith, but not a full fledged gunsmith, best to work for a good smith afterword, then go out on your own, there is just too much you have to know. You will not be a qualified gunsmith graduating from any school no matter what they tell you.
I worked for a very good old smith before going to CST, it was a huge help, he also had gun repair manuels from the manufacturers that they stopped producing some years ago, I copied at least 8, 4' binders of info from him and bought every gunsmith book available, many on e bay at a savaings.
A good library is a lifesaver.
Nothing but time, experience and some good guidence when new will make you into a smith, just not enough time to learn more than the basics at gunsmithing schools.
Until you have been a smith, most have no idea just how much you really have to know.
A very good basic knowledge of how guns work will help you figure out guns you have not worked on before.
If possible offer to work for a smith at no pay as I did and try to find a machining class you can attend before going, you have to be a good machinest.
It's not an easy road, but it can be done, I did it and built up a good business. Started the web site www.savagegunsmithing.com, specializing in accurizing Savages, built the business up pretty good by doing good work and giving great service.
Hurt my back badly, had to retire. Gave the web business to a friend, master gunsmith, he has done very well with it.
You will never get rich, the start up costs are great, the costs for tooling, materials and consumables is there every month and then uncle sam. It costs far more than most realize, every tool is $40.00 to $100.00 or more.
You have to have a true love for guns because it is a labor of love, you can make enough to live OK if you have a wife who works and who gets insurance for the family, but don't expect to make a good living from it. One smith can only do so much work and charge so much.
If you decide to do it, have a wife who works and gets benifits for the family, get a full time or part time job, open in the afternoons, evenings and weekends. Have your shop so people cannot see where the work is done, mine was not like that and until I got my fill sized lathe, mill etc, I had more than a few people walk out because they expected to see a fully equipped shop, even though I could have done what they needed.
Do what you can and find a good smith to farm out what work you cannot do, take the work in, mark it up a little, you get the customers that way.
In time, you will gain experience, equip your shop and do well.
It takes years to become a very good smith. Know your limitations, read everthing you can, I spent a great deal of money on books, old one's new one's, gunsmithing, machine work etc, every book I could find, you get something good from each one. Don't expect to find any books on repairing newer guns, you had better know how guns operate and have a good mind for figuring things out. Wreck a gun, you pay for it. I never did, but had to buy a few new parts, not many thank God.
You will be working on guns all the time, even once you have gone full time, by then you should have a backlog of work. Your friends will be out shooting and hunting, you will be working on guns.
It takes time to build a good reputation, mess up just a few guns and word spreads like wildfire in your area, it can kill a business.
When I retired, I sold a lot of my equipment and tools, but kept enough to do work on my guns, bought a small lathe and mill, drill press and now I just work on my own guns, I am having a great time buying fixers and restoring them. Now I have real fun.
Many fail, even after going to school. Whatever you do, try to find a smith to work for after getting out of school, it's hard to do, most don't have the money to pay for additional help, you can go to work for a manufacturer and be a parts installer, not much fun.
Yes, I'm trying to talk you out of it. Almost all the younger students without life experiences, skills and knowing how to run a business failed. You can never forget it's a business, not a hobby or you will fail.
If you are very motivated, have the means to keep a roof over your head, you won't make any money for at least 2 to 3 years by the time you have equipped your shop, love guns, maybe you can make a go of it.
It's a tough way to make a living, but if you can it is very rewarding, I loved it. I got there, but it was not an easy road. I got some good breaks working for tha good smith before and after attending school. By the time I opened my own shop, I knew enough to not ruin guns, fix them, modify them, accurize, rebarrel, make my own parts from scratch and keep my customers happy, became a pretty fair but not expert machinest. Farmed out bluing and parkerizing until I got my own set ups.
Not everyone is so lucky.I was very good at figuring out what was wrong with firearms because I took the time to really find out how they work. Got all 4.0's in the repair section of school, finished earily and became a student instructor the last month and a half. Told the head instructor I wanted the hardest guns to fix, no easy one's. he gave me a shot and I proved myself to him, got the worst of the worst, only way to learn, many younger students just wnted easy guns so they could get to the part where they build guns for themselves, I doubt even one of them ever became a smith.
I was a very good smith at the end, but not a master smith, very few of them around.
As I said, you will never know just how much you have to know, how much equipment you will need, the time it takes. It takes far longer to figure things out correctly when new than after you have been doing it for some years and time is money, you have to keep fixing, modifying etc guns and get them out the door as fast as you can, without taking any short cuts, they must be 100% right to make a living, you have to knw what makes a gun safe and when it's unsafe, you can get someone killed with what you don't know or if you do something wrong. No time to shoot the breeze and have a drink with your friends till after hours. You will work 10 to 12 hours a day, sometimes 7 days a week, at least 6, that is once you have built up a customer base.
It's the worst and best job one can have. Family life will suffer, don't count on 2 week vacations or too many days off when you don't open the doors because you want to do something else. That is not to say you cannot do those things, but all that you promised you will have their guns done by a particular date may have to get pushed back, do that too many times, they will go somewhere else. Don't discount prices, but never gouge someone, be fair and honest. If a gun that should take 1/2 hour to fix takes 4, most of the time you eat the expenses unless there are other curcomstances and then you had better calll the owner.
Think about it hard, if married, you had better have an understanding wife who loves you very much or you won't stay married long.
My Best, John
Yes Sir That's a spot on explanation
I too did the CST route, all I would add is stay away from Guidos and Night life in general
I was told by a Master Machinist and as good Gunsmith as I've ever known to forget smith school just continue with the Machine Shop education I had been working on, Best advice I never listened too.
I sit here in the shop 20+ yrs. later and would say to you, Forget it! Get the best education you can in machine shop and then some more. In your spare time get a hold of gunsmith books, manuals any publication that speaks of D&F and study well and keep for future referral.
If you are a SKILLED machinist with ability to do a wide variety of machine operations you may well have the true ability to be a good smith in time with experience.
Get a project and do a complete custom job by design and build the tools you need, build the parts you want Vs. buy them when possible, checker the metal, wood, Rework, polish your metal with proper files and stones then Blue. Do this work on cheap guns that when they FUBAR you can toss aside til your skilled enough to repair the last attempt.
In my opinion most smiths I see are near retirement, others are Parts re-placers, That XYZ Certified Armorer sticker on their door don't say GUNSMITH.
I don't think that the Odds are in favor of even the guy with best intent to make a decent living anymore.
Be a Great Machinist who is employable and build your guns for the enjoyment and experience.
I'm sorry I know this is not what you want to hear, But I wish I had listened to much the same advice.
Six munts ago I coodn't even spel Gunsmitt, Now I are ONE!!
It's a Tough way to make a buck, I worked for a couple shops, after CST, Bought out a small smith to acquire Lathe and other shop equipment, Tooling, parts and storefront. Few years and 2 kids later I needed Health coverage for all and closed up for a real 9-5 with benefits. I still do work as I will always have the love but long ago gave up that Business plan.
I wish you the Very Best
I too did the CST route, all I would add is stay away from Guidos and Night life in general
I was told by a Master Machinist and as good Gunsmith as I've ever known to forget smith school just continue with the Machine Shop education I had been working on, Best advice I never listened too.
I sit here in the shop 20+ yrs. later and would say to you, Forget it! Get the best education you can in machine shop and then some more. In your spare time get a hold of gunsmith books, manuals any publication that speaks of D&F and study well and keep for future referral.
If you are a SKILLED machinist with ability to do a wide variety of machine operations you may well have the true ability to be a good smith in time with experience.
Get a project and do a complete custom job by design and build the tools you need, build the parts you want Vs. buy them when possible, checker the metal, wood, Rework, polish your metal with proper files and stones then Blue. Do this work on cheap guns that when they FUBAR you can toss aside til your skilled enough to repair the last attempt.
In my opinion most smiths I see are near retirement, others are Parts re-placers, That XYZ Certified Armorer sticker on their door don't say GUNSMITH.
I don't think that the Odds are in favor of even the guy with best intent to make a decent living anymore.
Be a Great Machinist who is employable and build your guns for the enjoyment and experience.
I'm sorry I know this is not what you want to hear, But I wish I had listened to much the same advice.
Six munts ago I coodn't even spel Gunsmitt, Now I are ONE!!
It's a Tough way to make a buck, I worked for a couple shops, after CST, Bought out a small smith to acquire Lathe and other shop equipment, Tooling, parts and storefront. Few years and 2 kids later I needed Health coverage for all and closed up for a real 9-5 with benefits. I still do work as I will always have the love but long ago gave up that Business plan.
I wish you the Very Best
shortgrass
Silver $$ Contributor
There's much more to it than either brasshunter or dksac2 put in their posts. Being a "machinist" isn't the end all be all of 'smithing'. Today, that's what is concentrated on, the machine work. But, a gunsmith understands design, function, and repair, he's a metal finisher (even though 'spray on' is the current metal finish of choice, I wouldn't want that on the barrels of my AyA or vintage Sterlingworth!), a welder, and a stock maker (synthetic's currently the craze, quality wood pays much more per stock, and I'm not even thinkin' of some of these 95% "drop-ins" that I see advertised), and a good business sense. Most of all, you need patients to put up with those that have no practical experience and have collected all their 'knowledge' off the web! Like anything else worth while, there's more to it than 'meets the eye'. A bunch of it won't be learned in a machine shop.
dksac2
Retired Gunsmith, Retired LEO
The answer to me is somewhere between the two.
Very good machining skills are a must, but things learned at gunsmithing school, especially safety related are a must also.
Most people have no idea of what it takes to be a very good smith, not even a clue. You are working on something that may be one of the most important things in someone's life, you also hold the key to a possible accident causing injury or death.
You have to be the jack of all trades and do them well or farm them out (sometimes a very good idea as far as time goes)
It's very sad to see, most smiths are older, not a lot of newer one's. All the tools, parts, CD's etc have hurt the gunsmiths business. What is left are the harder things or the things people have messed up trying to do things themselves.
I've herd a few decent smiths say the best thing to do is Save $100,000, then lite it on fire, you won't be out much money and your life will be 95% easier.
Any smith who sticks it out, becomes good, only does it because he love guns. I know I do, they are things of beauty, the engineering and thought that went into them, the precision of many of them, I could go on and on.
My smith could make far more money at a variety of things, he's excellent at so many different trades as a result of being a smith. He's one of the few true Master Gunsmiths, but he says he would not want to do anything else.
If you find a good smith, treat him like gold, don't bug him or tell him how to do his job, we need every good to master smith we can get, they are a dying breed. Literally.
Me getting hurt so bad that I could no longer smith was on of the hardest things in my life, now I just try to help others where I can. I get jumped on from time to time by the internet gunsmiths who know all, but I don't care.
I just smile, hope others will take heed to what I post and the one's who do things very wrong, it's their firearm, not mine, I just hate to see others ruin or make theirs unsafe. be very decerning when taking tips off the net, no one knows it all, I sure don't. Use common sense. If you give your smith work, develop a good relationship with him, when doing a project on your own, he's much more likely to give you some info or help if you need it.
John K
Very good machining skills are a must, but things learned at gunsmithing school, especially safety related are a must also.
Most people have no idea of what it takes to be a very good smith, not even a clue. You are working on something that may be one of the most important things in someone's life, you also hold the key to a possible accident causing injury or death.
You have to be the jack of all trades and do them well or farm them out (sometimes a very good idea as far as time goes)
It's very sad to see, most smiths are older, not a lot of newer one's. All the tools, parts, CD's etc have hurt the gunsmiths business. What is left are the harder things or the things people have messed up trying to do things themselves.
I've herd a few decent smiths say the best thing to do is Save $100,000, then lite it on fire, you won't be out much money and your life will be 95% easier.
Any smith who sticks it out, becomes good, only does it because he love guns. I know I do, they are things of beauty, the engineering and thought that went into them, the precision of many of them, I could go on and on.
My smith could make far more money at a variety of things, he's excellent at so many different trades as a result of being a smith. He's one of the few true Master Gunsmiths, but he says he would not want to do anything else.
If you find a good smith, treat him like gold, don't bug him or tell him how to do his job, we need every good to master smith we can get, they are a dying breed. Literally.
Me getting hurt so bad that I could no longer smith was on of the hardest things in my life, now I just try to help others where I can. I get jumped on from time to time by the internet gunsmiths who know all, but I don't care.
I just smile, hope others will take heed to what I post and the one's who do things very wrong, it's their firearm, not mine, I just hate to see others ruin or make theirs unsafe. be very decerning when taking tips off the net, no one knows it all, I sure don't. Use common sense. If you give your smith work, develop a good relationship with him, when doing a project on your own, he's much more likely to give you some info or help if you need it.
John K
shortgrass
Silver $$ Contributor
Didn't say machining skills aren't needed. You won't get all you need at a two year school. Too many other things that need to be taught for an "all round" program.
dksac2
Retired Gunsmith, Retired LEO
Agreed, you really need both, not just one of the other. Some adult ed classes at high schools used to offer machine shop. Many classes are geared towards CNC now, making it harder to find the type of training needed for regular Lathe, Mill etc work.
Both are a huge asset. Unless you find a low cost machine shop training program, getting student loans for 2 full fledged programs will break the bank. Being a good machinest will not make one a good gunsmith, you have to have that training also. It would be a huge asset as was said.
If you just want to start out doing repair work, triggers, sighing etc., a gunsmithing school will serve you fine, you will learn some machine work, enough to do a re barrel, but if you are lookin at building custom guns, doing a lot of rebarreling, accurizing, you will need to learn precision machine work.
Kind of depends on the direction one wants to go.
John K
Both are a huge asset. Unless you find a low cost machine shop training program, getting student loans for 2 full fledged programs will break the bank. Being a good machinest will not make one a good gunsmith, you have to have that training also. It would be a huge asset as was said.
If you just want to start out doing repair work, triggers, sighing etc., a gunsmithing school will serve you fine, you will learn some machine work, enough to do a re barrel, but if you are lookin at building custom guns, doing a lot of rebarreling, accurizing, you will need to learn precision machine work.
Kind of depends on the direction one wants to go.
John K
dksac2
Retired Gunsmith, Retired LEO
If you go to gunsmithing school first, it greatly increases your chances of a good smith talking you under his wing.
I would not expect much as far as wages. You don't have to rack up 8000 hours either, great if you could, but a year working at a busy shop and if you caan get some extra machine schooling on the side, you'd do fine as a new smith. It takes a lot of attention to detail, but it can be done. Prior life experience is a huge help, if you have been working with a lot of mechanical things for some years, you will find it helps a lot.
It will not be easy to find a shop to work at, it may take some time. While looking, you can do things you are comfortble with, of course you will need an FFL. Many repairs can be done as well as other things.
You will learn enough in school to do the basics, but will run into things that give you trouble.
If there is another good smith near you, you can farm out work to him, might even give you an in.Many smiths are good at helping new smiths, others cannot be bothered.
If you are going to go ahead with this, buy as many books as you can, e bay has some good used ones many times. When in school, buy extra tools that will make your work their easier and let them know you want the tough jobs, not the asy ones, you'll learn far more.
My Best, John K
I would not expect much as far as wages. You don't have to rack up 8000 hours either, great if you could, but a year working at a busy shop and if you caan get some extra machine schooling on the side, you'd do fine as a new smith. It takes a lot of attention to detail, but it can be done. Prior life experience is a huge help, if you have been working with a lot of mechanical things for some years, you will find it helps a lot.
It will not be easy to find a shop to work at, it may take some time. While looking, you can do things you are comfortble with, of course you will need an FFL. Many repairs can be done as well as other things.
You will learn enough in school to do the basics, but will run into things that give you trouble.
If there is another good smith near you, you can farm out work to him, might even give you an in.Many smiths are good at helping new smiths, others cannot be bothered.
If you are going to go ahead with this, buy as many books as you can, e bay has some good used ones many times. When in school, buy extra tools that will make your work their easier and let them know you want the tough jobs, not the asy ones, you'll learn far more.
My Best, John K
spitfire_er
Silver $$ Contributor
I would not consider myself a gunsmith yet, but an apprentice would be valid. I got lucky as far as getting in with a couple master smiths. The first one was about 5 years ago when I met my wife... Her grandfather is a Master smith. I have never really worked for him but he has guided me through building my first six rifles for myself using his shop. Then I stopped into another busy smithing shop in town and got to talking to the owner. I've been in there before but this time I happend to mention I worked with the other guy for the past few years building rifles. I also have a pretty vast knoledge of different guns and the history of many guns and how they work. I love to take things apart to see how they work. Anyways.... He asked me a few questions about doing lathe work and building rifles and stock work and a few other things.. and he ended up offering me a part time job in his shop doing machine work. I get paid a marginal rate, but it's besides my full time job and he is willing to teach me anything I want to know, so I consider myself lucky in that respect. I'm currently doing quite a bit of precision barrel work, blueprinting actions/barrels, muzzle brakes mill work etc....
I'm sure I would have never gotten the oppritunity to work at his shop had I not had the experience with my grandfather in-law. Growning up I also had a grandfather with a metal shop, so I learned things such as welding/torch work early in life which is another part of it. When I first started building rifles for myself I started doing the stockwork too. I've learned a few things since then from people more knowledgeable than I. Stockwork is an art within itself.
I don't plan on becomming a full time gunsmith, but maybe some day down the road when I gather a few tools for myself, I will most likely have a part time buisness doing smithy work.
I'm sure I would have never gotten the oppritunity to work at his shop had I not had the experience with my grandfather in-law. Growning up I also had a grandfather with a metal shop, so I learned things such as welding/torch work early in life which is another part of it. When I first started building rifles for myself I started doing the stockwork too. I've learned a few things since then from people more knowledgeable than I. Stockwork is an art within itself.
I don't plan on becomming a full time gunsmith, but maybe some day down the road when I gather a few tools for myself, I will most likely have a part time buisness doing smithy work.
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