Guidance on next step; goal 300-400 yard big game hunt

[GeneDoc]

New to the forum and looking for guidance please on my next gun purchase.

I am a middle-age hunter who has taken four shooting training courses through Appleseed (appleseedinfo.org) but certainly don't consider myself any kind of marksman. I am able to shoot reasonably well out to 200+ yards, but want more consistency in the 300-400 yard range. As I'm mainly a hunter, shooting longer than 500 yards would only be for paper/steel, though would be fun. There's a 600 yard range that's local and could be fun, though my "hunting" gun would get expensive as a target shooter.

Consistency obviously comes through plenty of practice, though I am struggling to figure out if my large caliber inconsistency is coming from me, my guns, and/or my ammunition. I only shoot factory loads, but am open to the idea of hand loading if people saying hand loading is a must. In the Appleseed course, shooting a heavily modified Ruger 10/22, I am able to be fairly consistent in timed-position shooting. Again, not saying I'm special -- far from it.

My hunting guns:

• Browning BAR Mark II 30-06 with Leupold VX-3
• Browning Xbolt 338 WinMag with Leupold VX-5 with Boyds custom stock with adjustable comb

My goal hunts: North American big game (elk, moose, caribou), though may drift into long range goats, so want the ability to use a smaller bullet; already use the 30-06 as my whitetail gun in Wisconsin, for which is does just fine. I've taken an elk with the 338, though range was so close as to be cheating with that gun.

One option would be to try to modify the 338 further through accurizing, though it doesn't have the possibility of a small bullet for goats. I presume the 338 can be accurized, though those services can cost so much as to make it more worthwhile to simply purchase a new gun. I contacted one gunsmith offering accurizing and got a response that he wasn't sure he could do much with the setup. Seemed odd, but made me think there was something wrong with my equipment choices in the 338. That is leading me to consider getting a different caliber gun and a scope that allows windage and elevation adjustment.

To choose my next caliber, I've been reviewing Hornady ballistics data. I'm mainly using the SST round, though am open to suggestions. The 7mm Rem Mag looks like a good choice to cover large and mid-sized animals, though the 300 Win Mag would be good comparison for it.

So, I'm contemplating a Browning Xbolt 7mm Rem Mag with a Boyds gunstock with cheek elevation and a Leupold VX-5 with 3-15x56 with windage and elevation. Long-winded, I know, but I'm very interested in other's thoughts. In the meantime, I've purchased a number of long range shooting books to try to bolster my skills so I have something to do until the snow melts...

 

[nakneker]

Here’s one opinion on rifle choice. I think you’ll find that a lot of gunsmiths out there work on 700s and their clones. Tikkas are gaining in popularity and so you see more and more aftermarket parts and accessories for those too. There nothing wrong with a Browning Xbolt. It’s when you start looking for aftermarket stocks, bottom metal, etc you’ll find yourself limited to few if any choices. If you buy another rifle, I would think about that if there is a chance your gonna customize it yourself or look for a competent gunsmith to do some work.

 

[Tommie]

What chambering is the .338? I’m assuming .338 Winchester Magnum but there are other .338’s.

 

[GeneDoc]

What chambering is the .338? I’m assuming .338 Winchester Magnum but there are other .338’s.

WinMag, not Lapua
(Edited above post to specify this. Thanks)

 

[seymour fish]

New to the forum and looking for guidance please on my next gun purchase.

I am a middle-age hunter who has taken four shooting training courses through Appleseed (appleseedinfo.org) but certainly don't consider myself any kind of marksman. I am able to shoot reasonably well out to 200+ yards, but want more consistency in the 300-400 yard range. As I'm mainly a hunter, shooting longer than 500 yards would only be for paper/steel, though would be fun. There's a 600 yard range that's local and could be fun, though my "hunting" gun would get expensive as a target shooter.

Consistency obviously comes through plenty of practice, though I am struggling to figure out if my large caliber inconsistency is coming from me, my guns, and/or my ammunition. I only shoot factory loads, but am open to the idea of hand loading if people saying hand loading is a must. In the Appleseed course, shooting a heavily modified Ruger 10/22, I am able to be fairly consistent in timed-position shooting. Again, not saying I'm special -- far from it.

My hunting guns:

• Browning BAR Mark II 30-06 with Leupold VX-3
• Browning Xbolt 338 WinMag with Leupold VX-5 with Boyds custom stock with adjustable comb

My goal hunts: North American big game (elk, moose, caribou), though may drift into long range goats, so want the ability to use a smaller bullet; already use the 30-06 as my whitetail gun in Wisconsin, for which is does just fine. I've taken an elk with the 338, though range was so close as to be cheating with that gun.

One option would be to try to modify the 338 further through accurizing, though it doesn't have the possibility of a small bullet for goats. I presume the 338 can be accurized, though those services can cost so much as to make it more worthwhile to simply purchase a new gun. I contacted one gunsmith offering accurizing and got a response that he wasn't sure he could do much with the setup. Seemed odd, but made me think there was something wrong with my equipment choices in the 338. That is leading me to consider getting a different caliber gun and a scope that allows windage and elevation adjustment.

To choose my next caliber, I've been reviewing Hornady ballistics data. I'm mainly using the SST round, though am open to suggestions. The 7mm Rem Mag looks like a good choice to cover large and mid-sized animals, though the 300 Win Mag would be good comparison for it.

So, I'm contemplating a Browning Xbolt 7mm Rem Mag with a Boyds gunstock with cheek elevation and a Leupold VX-5 with 3-15x56 with windage and elevation. Long-winded, I know, but I'm very interested in other's thoughts. In the meantime, I've purchased a number of long range shooting books to try to bolster my skills so I have something to do until the snow melts...

You have unknowns: is it me or my equipment ? Have a friend video you from various angles. Look for flinch, trigger slap/jerk, inconsistent position, inconsistent recoil pattern. Secondly, have a known good shooter test your equip for grouping ability. Results will dictate your next move.

 

[GeneDoc]

You have unknowns: is it me or my equipment ? Have a friend video you from various angles. Look for flinch, trigger slap/jerk, inconsistent position, inconsistent recoil pattern. Secondly, have a known good shooter test your equip for grooming ability. Results will dictate your next move.

I certainly appreciate your input and it seems quite sound. However, when you live in the middle of nowhere, finding/phoning a friend can be problematic.

That was why I'd considered going to a course where you use their equipment to both brush up on my own skills and see how I shot with "proper" equipment. Unfortunately, there are many courses and it's a challenge to see which are hype and which are truly useful, not simply a sales pitch for Weatherby or other manufacturers. I'm open to suggestions about courses, but I will need to search the forum here before I push down that path.

I'm thinking finding a true marksman and hiring him/her for lessons, but see the first part of living in the middle of nowhere and not knowing how to get this kind of help.

 

[spencerhenry]

Elk and moose are one thing, they are large targets that can take some lead. Caribou are not all that big, I would consider anything suitable for mule deer also suitable for caribou.
I have killed all of them, whitetail, mule deer, caribou, moose, elk, bighorn sheep, and mountain goat. I have used my winchester ranger 270 that I bought in 1987 for all but the moose, but it would have done the job on that too.
Often times I think people use a gun that they cannot shoot well because they think they need the power, like the 338. My 338 is probably the most unpleasant big game gun I have. I know plenty of people who cannot shoot a 338 more than a few rounds before they are fearing every shot.
Not handloading is leaving so much on the table for accuracy. Perhaps you can find a factory load that shoots well, but maybe the best you can get is 1.5moa out of a factory gun and factory ammo. That makes a deer sized target seem pretty small at 400 yards.

Start with a rifle known for good accuracy, perhaps something like a cooper? I would get it in 270 winchester and run 150's for everything except smaller deer and antelope and then I would run 130's.

I am goat hunting again this year, going to use my bow. If I can't make it happen I will use my xp-100 in 7mm bench rest. It ought to do ok on a goat, it does a fine job on elk.

 

[Ringostar]

I'm not cutting down the rifles that you own, they are hunting rifles with certain purposes. It just they might not be the best choices for practicing shooting accuracy. The 338 Win Mag is heavy recoiling and can cause you to flinch while practicing. The semiauto 30.06 are fine for in the woods whitetails, but not considered a longer range accuracy rifle. Maybe you can consider a smaller cartridge to shoot as a fun easy to shoot practice rifle. A bolt 223 is inexpensive to shoot which is an option. There are also many great people/shooters in Wi that might be willing to help you out with technique. For your area, you can try Randy Gregory. He is a top long range shooter and builds custom rifles. He also goes by @Mudeat on here.

 

[slm9s]

Sell both and buy one nice bolt action rifle in 280, 280ai, or 30-06.

Learn to reload.

Practice a lot.

(Maybe have a $199/backup/beater rifle (cough - Savage - cough) for when the grizzly falls on your nice rifle)

 

[rcparker1]

A lot of it is hunt dependent. We just got back from a New Mexico barbary sheep hunt. Totally different than anything I've ever hunted being from Texas. We hunted the absolute most brutal mountains I've ever seen. Solid sharp rocks, cactus, thorns, everything on the mountain was difficult. Ended up taking a uphill shot at around 45 degrees at 200 yards. We were more unprepared for mountains that the rifle.

 

[yukonal]

Will you reload for it?

 

[people]

I think you do need to get into reloading.

 

[DirtySteve]

I am just throwing this out there but a Bolt action 30-06 will work for what you are going to be hunting. I may take some heat for this so will a 308. It is bullet placement that kills. You need a certain level of penetration for the game being hunted so bullet selection is important. It is better to have a well placed shot with a 308 than a poor shot with a 338 Super Doper Magnum.

 

[Intheshop]

#1 you need a plan.Which by asking questions here should provide.

#2 practice.Dry fire,live fire.Handloading is the logical progression here.

#3 discipline.Keeping your head down and minimize distraction.

 

[CharlieNC]

Can you routinely shoot 1 MOA groups at 100yd using a stable position (bench or prone) with your hunting rifles? If you can, then you need more practice at longer ranges. If not, you need to establish if it's you or the rifle/ammo. Since you say "reasonably well" out to 200 I would estimate the 100yd 1MOA should be doable.

 

[hogpatrol]

Firstly, welcome to the forums. As others have posted, a good idea is to get a mentor for shooting and make the move in to reloading. It could save you a lot of time and frustration. Am not a fan of those rifles that kill on one end and maim on the other so reconsider the .338 as a hunting tool, there are many good rounds in the 6.5 and 7mm calibers. For sharpening longer range skills, I would step down to a rifle with low recoil like the .223. Good Luck on your quest.

 

[GeneDoc]

I'm not cutting down the rifles that you own, they are hunting rifles with certain purposes. It just they might not be the best choices for practicing shooting accuracy. The 338 Win Mag is heavy recoiling and can cause you to flinch while practicing. The semiauto 30.06 are fine for in the woods whitetails, but not considered a longer range accuracy rifle. Maybe you can consider a smaller cartridge to shoot as a fun easy to shoot practice rifle. A bolt 223 is inexpensive to shoot which is an option. There are also many great people/shooters in Wi that might be willing to help you out with technique. For your area, you can try Randy Gregory. He is a top long range shooter and builds custom rifles. He also goes by @Mudeat on here.

Well, my list was a bit inaccurate. We also have an Browning Xbolt 243 that is my kids' gun with a short pull, but I did buy a long-pull Boyds stock for it so I can practice more with that if I'm purely out to practice with more than a 22LR. Perhaps that's the best next step of pushing hard with that gun on technique, which is what you're suggesting and I wouldn't have to spend any more money. Thank you for the reference.

 

[GeneDoc]

I appreciate the number of thoughts on the reloading. I am ignorant on the benefit and will need to read more on the forum. I just purchased a couple books on reloading to get a sense of the practice. I have certainly heard of it, but didn't know if it's more of a fan-boy issue or truly beneficial over factory ammo. I am a scientist by trade, so am inclined towards accurate measures and precision, so perhaps I'd enjoy the reloading. Heck, I'd even enjoy building the reloading bench.

Thanks again for everyone's thoughts. My takeaways so far:

• Snag the 243 from the kids and practice heavily to check my grouping at 100 and 200 yards
• Convince my wife that my building bullets in the basement won't blow up the house
• Look at a bolt action 7mm once I've earned it on the practice with the 243

 

[hogpatrol]

Factory ammo is a one size fits all solution while it's been proven that well made hand loaded ammo allows a rifle to shoot its full accuracy potential. As far as blowing up the house, I know you're serious but that's too funny.

 

[snert]

Gene,

First, welcome.
I really appreciate your question because it captures where a lot of the guys here started. We had guns that fit our fancy, some time on our hands, an interest in shooting (stuff) and a bit of enthusiasm. On this board you will find cowboys, NASA geeks, gunsmiths, benchrest (both short and long range) shooters, hand loaders, scientists, dentists, and some of us are several of these things and good ol' boys too! What binds us is shooting WELL, and what keeps us on this forum is that we are respectful, considerate and not too "fanboy". However, ALL of us have gone off the deep end (for the most part) and we have spent gawdawful amounts of energy, time and MONEY to get COOL stuff and learn to use it! We are REALLY good at spending other people's cash with a bit of advice too! So beware!! So with that little background, maybe I can toss out a few thoughts.

In my mind you are asking two questions:
1) How do I learn to shoot like Snert, that internet god of the rifle...uh, I mean shoot well enough to kill a caribou consistently at 400 yards with my smoke pole of choice?
2) What gun and stuff will get me there?

In my opinion, there are several ways t learn to shoot well enough to do the deed. We will revisit that in a minute.
First we have to decide what is the equipment you will choose to get you there. Mind you, you DO NOT NEED a whiz bang custom blaster with the most expensive scope and weather station app and handloads to do it. We ARE talking about a deer sized critter at 400 yards. Many rifles are capable of that accuracy, even with (gasp...hold the derision guys) factory ammo.

So here is what I would suggest. Do some research here on the want ads looking at hunting/target rigs. Get an idea of the commonalities...stock make, action, optics, trigger. Then seek advice as to a rifle that will hold MOA with GOOD factory ammo. You may find that a used Remington 700 set up in a McMillan stock, with a used but servicable Vortex, or Leupold etc, with a good after market trigger, in a medium caliber (6.5 up to 30) in a medium case will be a tool you can use to build your shooting skills. And if you do, you might be able to use it to hunt later. But buying the same kind of rig (above) in 223 will teach you to shoot!

Simple fact here: Shooting an inferior gun without a good scope will never teach you to be a good shot. The gun must have more accuracy potential than you. Sort that out first. In the mean time, start shooting a lighter cartridge and start at the bench. Learn trigger press. Learn to control your face placement, recoil, control of the gun off a rest. Don't just blast away. Figure out what YOU are doing, and how the gun shoots. A 223 will teach you this. After you can consistently shoot 5 shot MOA groups off a bench at 100 yards, go to 200, 300,400 You will soon find out wind, light, scope quality, etc are added issues. When you can shoot at any distance and keep MOA for 5 shots, all the time, then you know you are learning the gun, the gun is learning you and you can start to learn to shoot field positions. If your goal is 400 yard hunting, learn to shoot prone off a bipod. Learn to shoot prone off a backpack or bag. Shoot over stuff, around stuff, uphill and down. When you can shoot MOA at a distance, then you can say "I could shoot an animal at this distance".

Then go to a similar rifle (maybe one like I suggested) in a caliber big enough to do the deed at 400 yards. Except for Elk, I would think most of the 6.5, 270, light 30's would do fine for you. Learn to pick a bullet that will do the deed, and then repeat ALL this with your new rifle. Now, ammo is going to get expensive, which is why I suggest learning this with a 223. BUT you gotta pay, one way or another. Use lesser expensive ammo to practice, then train with good stuff before you hunt. Guys here will guide you to hand load and there are many good reasons for that, but I sense you want to learn to shoot, sort out your gun and hunt. To me, no real sense (yet) in learning to load too (especially if the bride is not on board, yet). Later, after you shoot a pile of factory ammo, saving the brass, you can tell her how much you can "save" by handloading!

Buy a good rifle (I suggest an aftermarket barrel on a tuned 700 or gasp, a Savage) and a good scope. Put a Jewell or at least Timney trigger in it. Shoot shoot shoot. You can do this. There are tons of videos about shooting, range estimation, wind reading, position shooting, bullet performance and deflection, terminal ballistics. educate yourself, but SHOOOOOOT. Ask about what rest to buy, what stocks guys like, what barrel makers, what cartridge they like. You will see a lot of good used equipment go up for sale here. Learn what fits your gig. But save money buying used and spend it on AMMO. You MUST SHOOT a lot to learn this game, not pop half a box and say you can shoot.



Then, when you are certain you know how to shoot, and want to really have a new kind of fun, jump off the deep end into oblivion and start handloading!! BTW, very doubtful you will ever blow up anything! I started at 14, some 40 years ago. Still here with all fingers and toes, all 11 of em.

Lastly, if you want to really learn, park the 338. All that will do at this point is teach you that big noises make big holes, somewhere.

best,

Snert