Grouping @ 100 yrds vs 200 yrds

[ELR LVR]

Bullets removed loaded balanced @0.05 gr bullet replaced @0.030" from the rifling only the crimp come in play some bullets are way more easier to remove and replace

Read this again,
Play with seating depth starting at .005" off the lands and work out in .005" increments until you get to .140" off the lands
In there somewhere will be your sweet spot, possibly even two nodes.
We cannot simply dictate what seating depth a rifle will shoot best since every rifle will behave differently.
The rifle must tell you by trying different seating depths.
This could simply be a seating depth issue where 100 yds is not going to show how badly it actually shoots at a "Wrong" seating depth.
An accurate bench gun will shoot badly if a wrong seating depth is used.
I would actually start all over doing this first (and eliminate the bullet crimp) perhaps chamfer the inside of the necks on your brass also.
I think you'll be pleasantly surprised
Most every factory rifle I have developed a load for, including buddies rifles that I never shot before have shown to be less than 1 MOA accuracy at the "Right" seating depth

 

[KMW 1954]

So if your doing load development @100 and your 1st 2 shots aren't touching, do you shoot the other 3 hoping it gets better or move to next seating or charge weight?
Curious is all

I'll be honest and admit that I cannot consistently put two shot touching so that is not the matrix I use.

 

[bozo699]

I'll be honest and admit that I cannot consistently put two shot touching so that is not the matrix I use.

What are you shooting?….I have to agree with Bc’z , If I shoot my second shot and my setup was good but the bullet isn’t where it should be there’s no reason to waste components as more shots isn’t going to make the group smaller. I spent years and 1000’s of dollars trying to make inaccurate factory rifles shoot, some times it can be done but it’s not the norm. You will save a lot of money and frustrations if you just hire a competent Smith build you one that will shoot.
Wayne

 

[KMW 1954]

What are you shooting?….I have to agree with Bc’z , If I shoot my second shot and my setup was good but the bullet isn’t where it should be there’s no reason to waste components as more shots isn’t going to make the group smaller. I spent years and 1000’s of dollars trying to make inaccurate factory rifles shoot, some times it can be done but it’s not the norm. You will save a lot of money and frustrations if you just hire a competent Smith build you one that will shoot.
Wayne

Thanks, I'll take that as advisement.

 

[Bc'z]

I'll be honest and admit that I cannot consistently put two shot touching so that is not the matrix I use.

Telling yourself you can't do it is a HUGE issue in of itself.
You need to have the mindset they are all going in the same hole.
The psychological aspect of shooting is huge having confidence in yourself and your gear and ammo

 

[DShortt]

What are you shooting?….I have to agree with Bc’z , If I shoot my second shot and my setup was good but the bullet isn’t where it should be there’s no reason to waste components as more shots isn’t going to make the group smaller. I spent years and 1000’s of dollars trying to make inaccurate factory rifles shoot, some times it can be done but it’s not the norm. You will save a lot of money and frustrations if you just hire a competent Smith build you one that will shoot.
Wayne

I'd only add that if you shoot a truly accurate rifle a few times, you will probably discover you can shoot better than you think you can, especially if you've been at it a while.
Now, I don't know you and sometimes people have physical limitations I'm unaware of and that's just a fact.

 

[Bill Norris]

What are you shooting?….I have to agree with Bc’z , If I shoot my second shot and my setup was good but the bullet isn’t where it should be there’s no reason to waste components as more shots isn’t going to make the group smaller. I spent years and 1000’s of dollars trying to make inaccurate factory rifles shoot, some times it can be done but it’s not the norm. You will save a lot of money and frustrations if you just hire a competent Smith build you one that will shoot.
Wayne

^^^ What he said ^^^

 

[jelenko]

Telling yourself you can't do it is a HUGE issue in of itself.
You need to have the mindset they are all going in the same hole.
The psychological aspect of shooting is huge having confidence in yourself and your gear and ammo

And, do the work so you know what you need to do.
If you don't get to where you can shoot small groups, load development is problematic.

 

[KMW 1954]

I wasn't going to respond to all this free judgement but.

My comment was that I could not shoot consistent two shot touching groups. I also shoot in a local league with some very good shooters. There is nothing wrong with the gun or the load, they are both quite capable. It is all operator ability. So for all you "Experts" that can shoot two shots touching every time, well good for you. You Earned it.

 

[bozo699]

I wasn't going to respond to all this free judgement but.

My comment was that I could not shoot consistent two shot touching groups. I also shoot in a local league with some very good shooters. There is nothing wrong with the gun or the load, they are both quite capable. It is all operator ability. So for all you "Experts" that can shoot two shots touching every time, well good for you. You Earned it.

Sir,
I’m no expert and I cannot always shoot two touching, however when I working up a load with a rifle built properly and by all rights should shoot small I’ll load two with a known load for said rifle. If said rifle put two in a respectable group I’ll walk back in the loading room and load another, if that goes where it belongs with that bullet, powder,primer, brass combo I’ll run a ladder if it doesn’t I’ll look elsewhere. If after several bullet powder combos it still doesn’t shoot I start looking for problems…… if I can’t find anything I’ll grab a known shooter out of my loading room and make sure I can do my part, if I can rifle goes back to the smith. I wasn’t looking down on you nor was I trying to disrespect you, if I did I apologize.
Wayne

 

[KMW 1954]

Sir,
I’m no expert and I cannot always shoot two touching, however when I working up a load with a rifle built properly and by all rights should shoot small I’ll load two with a known load for said rifle. If said rifle put two in a respectable group I’ll walk back in the loading room and load another, if that goes where it belongs with that bullet, powder,primer, brass combo I’ll run a ladder if it doesn’t I’ll look elsewhere. If after several bullet powder combos it still doesn’t shoot I start looking for problems…… if I can’t find anything I’ll grab a known shooter out of my loading room and make sure I can do my part, if I can rifle goes back to the smith. I wasn’t looking down on you nor was I trying to disrespect you, if I did I apologize.
Wayne

I work at a large outdoor rifle range and see many people daily. Some are rec shooters some are hunters some are match shooters. I see very few people that can consistently shoot groups that every two shots are touching each other. If I had to use that matrix then I would never arrive at a load to shoot.

This is a match target we just shot at 300yds. The group in the 8 ring is 4 shots, 5 total.BTW at 300 yds the scoring rings are not visible.

The whole point being has nothing to do with the rifle or the load. Some people just do not possess the skill and ability to shoot consistently 2 shots into the same hole. Again, to those who can, well congratulations.

When I shoot load developments I shoot 3 shot groups as it increases my confidence that I wasn't the influence on the shot. So if you feel confident in 2 shots then by all means do it.

 

[Ccrider]

With a good shooting ppc at 100, two shot groups are difficult to read during load development. Here is a tuner setting test I did once. Two shots would not have told me very much: I shoot three shot groups at 100. Surprising how many 2 and 1 groups you get where the gun is not in tune. Relying on two shots you would never know.

 

[bozo699]

I work at a large outdoor rifle range and see many people daily. Some are rec shooters some are hunters some are match shooters. I see very few people that can consistently shoot groups that every two shots are touching each other. If I had to use that matrix then I would never arrive at a load to shoot.

View attachment 1633129 This is a match target we just shot at 300yds. The group in the 8 ring is 4 shots, 5 total.BTW at 300 yds the scoring rings are not visible.

The whole point being has nothing to do with the rifle or the load. Some people just do not possess the skill and ability to shoot consistently 2 shots into the same hole. Again, to those who can, well congratulations.

When I shoot load developments I shoot 3 shot groups as it increases my confidence that I wasn't the influence on the shot. So if you feel confident in 2 shots then by all means do it.

I would say at 300 yards and you can’t see the rings that’s good shooting.
Wayne

 

[KMW 1954]

Thanks Wayne,
Been shooting this league for 4 seasons now and consider myself middle of the pack in skill and ability. Which goes back to my original statement that I cannot consistently shoot 2 shots at 100yds at touch. Like I said, it has nothing to do with the quality of the rifle or the precision of the ammunition, there is still a human element involved.

As ccrider posted in his picture, sure there are those capable of shooting that but those people are more the exception than the rule.

I admit that I cannot shoot two shot groups and be able to call when one shot is 3/8" off the other because I blew it. I also admit that I cannot shoot 5 two shot groups at 100yds and have 4 of the 5 touching each other. It's not the gun, it's not the load. It's the human behind the trigger. Guess I'm trying to state that unlike some my skill level doesn't attribute to a .2MOA shooter.

 

[bozo699]

Thanks Wayne,
Been shooting this league for 4 seasons now and consider myself middle of the pack in skill and ability. Which goes back to my original statement that I cannot consistently shoot 2 shots at 100yds at touch. Like I said, it has nothing to do with the quality of the rifle or the precision of the ammunition, there is still a human element involved.

As ccrider posted in his picture, sure there are those capable of shooting that but those people are more the exception than the rule.

I admit that I cannot shoot two shot groups and be able to call when one shot is 3/8" off the other because I blew it. I also admit that I cannot shoot 5 two shot groups at 100yds and have 4 of the 5 touching each other. It's not the gun, it's not the load. It's the human behind the trigger. Guess I'm trying to state that unlike some my skill level doesn't attribute to a .2MOA shooter.

I 100% understand all of this, I don’t want to hijack the thread but I could tell you a story on myself that took me videoing myself at different angles to figure out why my triple deuce that could shoot in the zeros on a good day and 2&3’s on a bad day but I couldn’t get it much better than 1/2” and sometimes worse than that.
Wayne

 

[Ccrider]

Thanks Wayne,
Been shooting this league for 4 seasons now and consider myself middle of the pack in skill and ability. Which goes back to my original statement that I cannot consistently shoot 2 shots at 100yds at touch. Like I said, it has nothing to do with the quality of the rifle or the precision of the ammunition, there is still a human element involved.

As ccrider posted in his picture, sure there are those capable of shooting that but those people are more the exception than the rule.

I admit that I cannot shoot two shot groups and be able to call when one shot is 3/8" off the other because I blew it. I also admit that I cannot shoot 5 two shot groups at 100yds and have 4 of the 5 touching each other. It's not the gun, it's not the load. It's the human behind the trigger. Guess I'm trying to state that unlike some my skill level doesn't attribute to a .2MOA shooter.

I think you may be selling yourself short. I shot that target above when I had only been into this for less than a year and I taught myself with the help of post and written direction from the many gracious and knowledgeable members on this site.

I don’t care how good you shoot, the devil of this is in the fine details. You have to figure out why you are not shooting small and work on fixing things, one thing at a time.

You have to start with a good gun, the right bag and rest. If you get that right, and can tune the rifle, it pretty much shoots itself; except for when the wind is blowing.

“Do or do not there is no try.”

 

[bozo699]

I think you may be selling yourself short. I shot that target above when I had only been into this for less than a year and I taught myself with the help of post and written direction from the many gracious and knowledgeable members on this site.

I don’t care how good you shoot, the devil of this is in the fine details. You have to figure out why you are not shooting small and work on fixing things, one thing at a time.

You have to start with a good gun, the right bag and rest. If you get that right, and can tune the rifle, it pretty much shoots itself; except for when the wind is blowing.

“Do or do not there is no try.”

Well said
Wayne

 

[KMW 1954]

I think you may be selling yourself short.

I don’t care how good you shoot, the devil of this is in the fine details. You have to figure out why you are not shooting small and work on fixing things, one thing at a time.

You have to start with a good gun, the right bag and rest. .

Not selling short.
Have made improvements every year I've shot. Will I ever get to the lever you have achieved? Only time will tell. At 71yo the eyes are not as sharp and the hand is not as steady as they once were.

Now I primarily shoot in a local match league and the biggest rules to this are that all shooting must be done off a front bipod with rubber feet and a soft rear bag. As I have been repeatedly told, those are not the most ideal or most conducive to shooting tiny groups. So none of this is being shot from F Class level equipment. So I guess one would be able to say we are limited to what we are using.