Group size with light rifles
- Thread starter CTK
- Start date
CharlieNC
Gold $$ Contributor
By your description it sounds like fliers are a significant part of the problem? As noted, self awareness coupled with good records will help you diagnose and improve. In addition to group size note the horizontal and vertical spread too, which is typically worse. Call every shot and compare actual vs what you did that may have caused a flier. How was the recoil management for good vs a bad shot. It should be easier to identify the source of a flier vs improving overall group size.
This probably not the answer you want or will like but it is offered in the spirit of helping and contributing IF hunting is your game.
In my experience of 40+ years of varmint, predator and big game hunting if you are achieving 1/2" moa for a varmint rifle and 1 moa for a big game rifle stop. Spend the rest of your time and money on learning how to shoot under field conditions using whatever shooting aid (i.e. sticks, bipod, etc.) you intend to use in the field. Shoot at life size targets to learn shot placement, at various distances under various wind, light and temperature conditions. Learn your rifle and load. Become a better marksman.
I know a few guys that can punch very tiny group in paper and that's great if that's your game. But get these guys off the bench in the field and they fall flat.
In my experience of 40+ years of varmint, predator and big game hunting if you are achieving 1/2" moa for a varmint rifle and 1 moa for a big game rifle stop. Spend the rest of your time and money on learning how to shoot under field conditions using whatever shooting aid (i.e. sticks, bipod, etc.) you intend to use in the field. Shoot at life size targets to learn shot placement, at various distances under various wind, light and temperature conditions. Learn your rifle and load. Become a better marksman.
I know a few guys that can punch very tiny group in paper and that's great if that's your game. But get these guys off the bench in the field and they fall flat.
I agree with you completely. I have just been on a quest to improve my reloading skills. I have hunted big game for a little over 10 years. Only misses have been the learning experience that corn stalks deflect bullets. I have never shot at an animal over 350 yards. I would take a 500y shot but never have had a reason to do so. I shoot many whitetail does each year. I occasionally take a buck. We have an overpopulation of whitetail in my neck of the woods. I practice with .22 sporters. Is your nickname related to a Kleingunther K-22? I have hoped to find a nice used K-22 but never have.
BoydAllen
Gold $$ Contributor
For light hunting rifles, I stay completely away from five shot groups because of barrel heating issues. IMO for most light hunting rifles, standard front bags are not the best approach because of fit and because of hardness/vibration damping issues. Other types of front bags such as various versions of the Bulls X and similar may offer superior vibration damping, and result in smaller groups. With standard rests, and light hunting stocks, front bags are often positioned too far forward on the stock. Overly hard rear bags can also come into play. There are often issues relating to how well a rifle can slide in the front and rear bags during recoil. I find that many times shooters do not appreciate the advantages of double coverage for ear protection, and may have slight flinch issues because of recoil that they do not address because they want to see themselves as tough, rather than take steps to lessen felt recoil. Trigger pull comes into the equation because of both weight and how shooters hold the stock, touch and pull the trigger. I never do serious testing without a couple of wind flags. Generally, by coaching a shooter as to how he shoots, watching the flags for him and advising when to shoot, I have been able to show significant group improvement over what he might get with the same equipment and loads. That being said, my advice is that if one can reliably shoot three quarter inch groups with these types of rifles, given the size of the animals that they are general used to hunt, that load development should be considered a success, and ended. Having targets that are the easiest to aim at, with a given scope magnification is of great help. Often shooters do not have a firm grasp on scope adjustment and may not know that they have parallax that is decreasing their accuracy. The list goes on. Dry fire practice can be of immense value.
Others may disagree with this but for light barreled hunting rifles, I will keep almost all of my load development to to 2 shot groups, seems that a skinny barrel will show that it doesn't like a load within 2 shots so there's no need of sending the 3rd down the barrel or even having it loaded, just more wear and tear on brass and barrels and if you pull the round it leaves you questioning the resized brass and no one wants to shoot a pulled bullet for anything other than a fouler.
This may be standard information that you already know, not trying to insult your inteligence. When starting I'll find a window of powder I want to shoot, for example in a 6.5x47 with a 130g TMK I'll have 3 charges of Varget, 37.0, 37.3, 37.6 then I'll have 5 different seating depths, .005 into the lands, touching (faint marks on a polished test bullet, toss the Hornady thing in the trash), .005 off, .010 off, .020 off. So I load 2 rounds of each combination, giving me 30 rounds in all, I also use a sharpie to write the load on the brass (both rounds). I set up the target in a grid with 5 targets in a row and at least 3 rows (Sinclair practice benchrest targets work great for this) then mark the individual targets with what the load is, so for example the top row here would be, marked large enough to read through a 20x scope or my spotting scope;
37.0 +5 37.0 T 37.0 -5 37.0 -10 37.0 -20
Then I fore a couple foulers, wait for the barrel to cool, fire the first 2, wait for the barrel to cool, fire the next 2, wash, rinse, repeat.
The reason I mark the cases and the target is in case I get confused on what load is supposed to go where, all I have to do is look, second I can then take that target down, study it and hopefully see a pattern where a tolerable load may be.
I'll then try to back up any load I may like with another 2 shot group, if a load looks good there then I'll try a 3 shot group with it, I do this over different days with hopefully different conditions and temp, cleaning in between and foulers beforehand. If that 3 shot group does well with the first 2 but then the 3rd sneaks out a little, I'm not too concerned, I'd consider it pretty close to being done, I'd then load up maybe 6-8, go shoot a couple 2 shot groups at 200 maybe 400, try and shoot some targets at 600 (we have clay pigeons on a berm we use for this). If it performs well then, I consider it done. Will it shot a knothole with a 3 or 5 shot group? I don't know and I don't care, I have rifles that are made to do that and can, the hunting rifle is not made for doing that, it's made to carry and versatility, for hunting. If it can shoot a good 2 shot group with a cool dirty bore then that is exactly what you want from it in the field, to put the first bullet precisely where you want it and the same with the second. Any more than that, with the rare exception of maybe a coyote, and well, that accuracy didn't really matter in the beginning. You may as well join the 30-30 levergun or "tactical hunter" AR-47 crowd and send 20 rounds down through the woods after a critter.
This may be standard information that you already know, not trying to insult your inteligence. When starting I'll find a window of powder I want to shoot, for example in a 6.5x47 with a 130g TMK I'll have 3 charges of Varget, 37.0, 37.3, 37.6 then I'll have 5 different seating depths, .005 into the lands, touching (faint marks on a polished test bullet, toss the Hornady thing in the trash), .005 off, .010 off, .020 off. So I load 2 rounds of each combination, giving me 30 rounds in all, I also use a sharpie to write the load on the brass (both rounds). I set up the target in a grid with 5 targets in a row and at least 3 rows (Sinclair practice benchrest targets work great for this) then mark the individual targets with what the load is, so for example the top row here would be, marked large enough to read through a 20x scope or my spotting scope;
37.0 +5 37.0 T 37.0 -5 37.0 -10 37.0 -20
Then I fore a couple foulers, wait for the barrel to cool, fire the first 2, wait for the barrel to cool, fire the next 2, wash, rinse, repeat.
The reason I mark the cases and the target is in case I get confused on what load is supposed to go where, all I have to do is look, second I can then take that target down, study it and hopefully see a pattern where a tolerable load may be.
I'll then try to back up any load I may like with another 2 shot group, if a load looks good there then I'll try a 3 shot group with it, I do this over different days with hopefully different conditions and temp, cleaning in between and foulers beforehand. If that 3 shot group does well with the first 2 but then the 3rd sneaks out a little, I'm not too concerned, I'd consider it pretty close to being done, I'd then load up maybe 6-8, go shoot a couple 2 shot groups at 200 maybe 400, try and shoot some targets at 600 (we have clay pigeons on a berm we use for this). If it performs well then, I consider it done. Will it shot a knothole with a 3 or 5 shot group? I don't know and I don't care, I have rifles that are made to do that and can, the hunting rifle is not made for doing that, it's made to carry and versatility, for hunting. If it can shoot a good 2 shot group with a cool dirty bore then that is exactly what you want from it in the field, to put the first bullet precisely where you want it and the same with the second. Any more than that, with the rare exception of maybe a coyote, and well, that accuracy didn't really matter in the beginning. You may as well join the 30-30 levergun or "tactical hunter" AR-47 crowd and send 20 rounds down through the woods after a critter.
Brians356
Silver $$ Contributor
+1 on everything, and in particular the part about parallax. The instructions which all scope makers provide are next to useless. My method as previously posted on this forum:
http://forum.accurateshooter.com/threads/wondering-if-i-am-missing-anything.3859051/#post-36485831
-
K-22, the greatest pistol ever made, the Smith & Wesson Model 17, Masterpiece, 22 caliber. It's like a fine Swiss watch, great trigger, great balance, super accurate for a revolver and totally reliable. Mine has a target hammer and target trigger. The hammer cock is perfect for time and rapid fire in the national match course. Of course no body probably shoots a revolver anymore in bulls eye. I had to quit bulls eye about 15 years ago because of an elbow injury that prevents me from shooting one handed. I still shoot the old K 22 but use two hands now. Popped a few rabbits for the pot and a few ghogs with it also in my better days as a pistol shooter.
I shot hunter's pistol silouette (qualified AAA) and bulls eye (national match - qualified distinguished expert) competition with mine, and hunted small game. Mine is is currently 44 years old and still shoots great and I've shot it a lot, and I mean a lot closing in on 100,000 rounds fired.
Mine has a 6" barrel, sold as a Model 17. The "K" designation is for the frame size, "K" frame. Obviously the "22" represents 22 rim fire. Mine is blued, they didn't offer stainless in those day in this model. Also mine does not have a "rib" under the barrel.
As an update, I temporarily switched my 280AI to an 18x max scope with a fine reticle. Switched to a Rimfire BR 50y target with the x ring colored with a Sharpie. Moved to warmer loads. Temperature was under 85 degrees. Spent more time cooling the barrel. Everything I shot was under 1/2". Interestingly I shot some groups with Magnetospeed attached on one shot and 2 without. All of the 2 shot groups were ragged holes and the shot with the Magnetospeed was exactly 2" low each time. This is a hunting rifle and I am going to make sure the 2 loads that performed best will do same with cold bore. Will have a 168 VLD load and a 140 TTSX load. 140 TTSX was running about 3100 without pushing and the 168 VLD was hitting around 2850. Have to re check the speed on it as I forgot to write it down. I think the advice to go to a higher magnification scope made a huge difference. I soon should have 2 consistent sub .4 loads for long range and whitetail. Will make up 50 of each and put the 280AI stuff in the back of the cabinet. Now on to the 6.5x47. Goal is to wrap that up quickly as well. There is no point in burning up these barrels seeking perfection.
Upgrades & Donations
This Forum's expenses are primarily paid by member contributions. You can upgrade your Forum membership in seconds. Gold and Silver members get unlimited FREE classifieds for one year. Gold members can upload custom avatars.
Click Upgrade Membership Button ABOVE to get Gold or Silver Status.
You can also donate any amount, large or small, with the button below. Include your Forum Name in the PayPal Notes field.
To DONATE by CHECK, or make a recurring donation, CLICK HERE to learn how.
Click Upgrade Membership Button ABOVE to get Gold or Silver Status.
You can also donate any amount, large or small, with the button below. Include your Forum Name in the PayPal Notes field.
To DONATE by CHECK, or make a recurring donation, CLICK HERE to learn how.