Group size with light rifles

[CTK]

Am intentionally putting this in the Reloading forum. I do not shoot competition but would appreciate input from all of the skilled shooters in here. I buy and load for hunting rifles. I enjoy working up loads for them and finding the best group to speed combination. I do not have as much time to shoot as I would like to have. I am still learning much about reloading and have not perfected the art of efficient load development. My wonder is how much of my group size is influenced by me? Read this as flinch, inconsistent pressure, not positioning the rifle in exact spot in rest each time, etc... I am shooting 7 to 7 1/2 lb. rifles (unscoped weight) with hunting style scopes with 12x and 18x max magnification. I use a Sinclair front rest and a Protector rear bag. My rifles are very nice synthetic customs. They are built by well known smiths with high end components. I use Redding Competition dies. My groups, with both of my current rifles, average about 1/2" with somewhat proven loads. I have shot .15" groups and 1" groups with both of these rifles. I cannot really read wind and also wonder about the effect of wind on my groups. My range is shielded somewhat but the wind swirls when present. Is there a methodology that helps remove human error and efficiently proves or disproves loads? Obviously I could increase my sample size and fire lots of groups of each load. Should I.....?

Fire 5 shot groups and kick out fliers?
Fire multiple 3 shot groups?
Start with a Ladder Test?
Work on form?
Use high magnification scope for load development?
Start weighing brass, culling bullets, neck turning etc...?

Shut up and be happy with 1/2" groups out of a hunting rifle and seek help for OCD?

Thanks in advance!
Craig

 

[Sniper338]

Hard for anyone not shooting with you to see how much you influence your own shooting.

Factory rifles... for most of them half inch is good. Its comparing oranges to apples with a custom gun and a factory.

You could get a nice custom gun and find out you shoot the same half inch groups, or you could find out you do shoot good and it is the limits of the factory guns.

 

[mac86951]

My factory 30-06 will print 1/2" 5-shot groups at 100y. Part of the larger groups are me; and much are barrel heat. Give a good 2 minutes between shots for any group more than 3. My biggest consistency improvement was monitoring barrel temperature. My 30-06 barrel measure .562" at the muzzle; pencil indeed. Maybe I can shave off another 0.010" for weight savings...

-Mac

 

[CTK]

My factory 30-06 will print 1/2" 5-shot groups at 100y. Part of the larger groups are me; and much are barrel heat. Give a good 2 minutes between shots for any group more than 3. My biggest consistency improvement was monitoring barrel temperature. My 30-06 barrel measure .562" at the muzzle; pencil indeed. Maybe I can shave off another 0.010" for weight savings...

-Mac

I will pay more attention to barrel temps. Good point. Hard to cool a barrel right now in TN. I have just been keeping the barrel from overheating. Not maintaining a consistent temp for grouping.

 

[mac86951]

I will pay more attention to barrel temps. Good point. Hard to cool a barrel right now in TN. I have just been keeping the barrel from overheating. Not maintaining a consistent temp for grouping.

Exactly. Sunshine in summer in the SW; good for cooking eggs.

Not a customer, not sponsored by the company. Barrelcool makes a device that looks to be a good idea. I also believe in testing as near as in use conditions apply, thus as much as we'd love to see your 10-shot group, I have a feeling that your hunting rifles will benefit from several 3-shot groups that also include your first cold-bore shot. Do your load testing in round-robin fashion and then barrel temp and shooter will have less probability of errant accuracy and better average out the whole. We all hate the false negatives, but we often forget the off chance of a false positive of a group in the zeros. Several groups are better indicators than one, though if you're talking 300RUM, or a 416 Rigby take your time...

-Mac

 

[Tim Singleton]

What caliber are the rifles you are working with?
What Bullets are you using?
1/2" are IMO very acceptable for a 7.5 lb hunting rifle

 

[Comrade Terry]

Hard to cool a barrel right now in TN.

Barrelcool.com It works great in Florida right now.

 

[Tommie]

OCD? Sure, but I've done the same thing with factory rifles. How much barrel life do you want kiss goodbye while chasing smaller groups with hunting rifles? Maybe you're more of an accuracy nut than hunter (as I am).

 

[hogpatrol]

Not a big fan of load development for skinny barrel hunting rigs in the heat of summer months. I do that in the same temps in which I will hunt.

 

[jlow]

Shut up and be happy with 1/2" groups out of a hunting rifle and seek help for OCD?
Craig

This... Not to be rude but going for super accuracy with a hunting rifle is a mismatch between tool and goal.

 

[CTK]

What caliber are the rifles you are working with?
What Bullets are you using?
1/2" are IMO very acceptable for a 7.5 lb hunting rifle

I have a 280 AI that I am now working up for 168gr Berger Hunting VLD's

Have a new 6.5x47L that am working up for 130 Berger Hunting VLD's and hopefully 120 Barnes TTSX. Have not tamed the TTSX's yet.

The 280 AI is a Jim Borden build. The 6.5x47 is a Jon Beanland build on a Bighorn action. I honestly think that I am pulling some shots and not doing well reading the wind. These are accurate rifles by most standards. My fantasy is that I will find the perfect load and quit burning up my barrels. I am also using this accuracy quest to learn more about reloading. It is both frustrating and fun. I only shoot about 10 rounds per year checking zeros and whitetail hunting. I plink and shoot targets with rimfire sporters. I may have a long range / target rifle built one of these days. Thanks for the replies.

 

[LHSmith]

I spent my first 30 years of shooting doing just what you are attempting-finding the best 5 shot load for each of my rifles. I never found consistent accuracy until I got the Benchrest bug. What I learned from 15 years of BR that solved the consistency problem: 1/ use some form of wind flags 2/ take and keep notes on each shoot session (conditions at the time, the way the rifles recoiled, was I comfortable behind the gun that session? condition of fired brass ) 3/ experiment with rifle balance point in rest 4/ eliminate as many variables as possible (make each load exact, discount cold-clean bore shots, shoot in like conditions only-with special attention to sun vs. cloud cover) and 5/ attempt to do everything exactly the same way (cheek pressure, trigger pull, bench posture, barrel temp.- shoot a group, then let the barrel cool, etc.), 6/ On sporter bbl's use 3-shot groups, on Varmint/target bbl's use 5 shot groups.
Every range is unique. They all have terrain that affect bullet flight differently...so use the same range venue. Shooting only when it is dead calm (early am, late pm) looks like it would be ideal.....but that is when thermals are running and cause subtle vertical in groups...unless you have flagging along the bullet path to show what is happening in real time.
If you still persist with this OCD for accuracy, look up the ballistics for your bullet and the intended range and note the calculated wind drift- note how much for every 5mph change - can you detect 5 or even 10 mph difference? Flagging will give you a consistent read on wind speed in real time ( with some learning experience).Now you can see why you have been chasing your tail without using flags. I spent 30 years wasting components, barrels, and my time trying to do the impossible.

 

[rardoin]

I honestly think that I am pulling some shots and not doing well reading the wind. These are accurate rifles by most standards. My fantasy is that I will find the perfect load and quit burning up my barrels.

If you can get under .5 MOA at 100 with say...one third of your 3 shot groups, you may have that "perfect load". Once I quit obsessing with the 'perfect load' and found one that shot most of the time under .5 MOA I focused on consistent technique, getting comfortable at the bench. My fliers have come less often and not as far out of group center as before....by only getting the proper torque on the nut behind the trigger. Lots of trigger time is great but without focusing on every action I am taking during each shot and working to make that consistent I found I was just burning components and the barrel throat. I am nooooo where near where I wish to be but I get a little better each time I get behind the rifle. After beaucoup testing of different powders/bullets/case prep techniques I have found a 'sweet spot' that was almost identical to one of the first 'good loads' I found 1200 rounds back!

 

[billlarson]

Am intentionally putting this in the Reloading forum. I do not shoot competition but would appreciate input from all of the skilled shooters in here. I buy and load for hunting rifles. I enjoy working up loads for them and finding the best group to speed combination. I do not have as much time to shoot as I would like to have. I am still learning much about reloading and have not perfected the art of efficient load development. My wonder is how much of my group size is influenced by me? Read this as flinch, inconsistent pressure, not positioning the rifle in exact spot in rest each time, etc... I am shooting 7 to 7 1/2 lb. rifles (unscoped weight) with hunting style scopes with 12x and 18x max magnification. I use a Sinclair front rest and a Protector rear bag. My rifles are very nice synthetic customs. They are built by well known smiths with high end components. I use Redding Competition dies. My groups, with both of my current rifles, average about 1/2" with somewhat proven loads. I have shot .15" groups and 1" groups with both of these rifles. I cannot really read wind and also wonder about the effect of wind on my groups. My range is shielded somewhat but the wind swirls when present. Is there a methodology that helps remove human error and efficiently proves or disproves loads? Obviously I could increase my sample size and fire lots of groups of each load. Should I.....?

Fire 5 shot groups and kick out fliers?
Fire multiple 3 shot groups?
Start with a Ladder Test?
Work on form?
Use high magnification scope for load development?
Start weighing brass, culling bullets, neck turning etc...?

Shut up and be happy with 1/2" groups out of a hunting rifle and seek help for OCD?

Thanks in advance!
Craig

1/2" group with a factory barrel is better than most....... you are chasing your tail..... However with a custom lite barreled hunting rifle...... 3 shot groups phased about 15 minutes between each shot......
bill

 

[Homerange]

@CTK
From my experience attempting the same as you there a 3 factors you must control/master but let's first assume your loads are reasonable and you'll correctly manage barrel heat.
1. Recoil, with a lightweight platform this most important as it will open groups the more you shoot. How to reduce? Anyway you can. Additional sissy padding is mandatory with bigger calibers and despite using a front rest or bipod use a forend hold as well. I always pad up for benchrest shooting.
2. Trigger. Many factory triggers are gawd awful, set way too heavy release for any sort of precision shooting for the field let alone bench use. 2-3 lbs is light enough for most field work but lighter makes fine offhand shooting difficult. Release needs to be crisp with zero creep, the old saying that a good trigger should "break like glass" need guide you when adjustment is made.
3. Point of aim. Just the target you use can affect groups. After trying many I now only use a light coloured 1" square, this I quarter with the cross hairs and seeing you're using similar magnification you'll find this method can give better results than focussing on a defined aiming point. With some of the better hunting rifles in our stable 1/4" groups are indeed possible.

I'll add another possibly controversial factor.....noise.
I have several rifles with cans and one might assume you can shoot the same groups with a suppressed rifle without additional hearing compared to with muffs or plugs.
Good luck, I can't.
Decades of field shooting has programmed my subconscious to expect pain from the report of a center fire rifle BUT those decades also have trained my brain to never expect pain when wearing muffs.
Shoot some groups with and without muffs, you might be surprised.

 

[swampthang]

Barrelcool.com It works great in Florida right now.

A buddy of mine was the inventor of the barrel cool.
For thin contours and strings over 10 I think it's a must have item...it really works. Bryan is a GREAT GUY,.A GOOD SHOOTER AND VERY INTELLIGENT.
Well worth the $30.00

 

[CTK]

@CTK
From my experience attempting the same as you there a 3 factors you must control/master but let's first assume your loads are reasonable and you'll correctly manage barrel heat.
1. Recoil, with a lightweight platform this most important as it will open groups the more you shoot. How to reduce? Anyway you can. Additional sissy padding is mandatory with bigger calibers and despite using a front rest or bipod use a forend hold as well. I always pad up for benchrest shooting.
2. Trigger. Many factory triggers are gawd awful, set way too heavy release for any sort of precision shooting for the field let alone bench use. 2-3 lbs is light enough for most field work but lighter makes fine offhand shooting difficult. Release needs to be crisp with zero creep, the old saying that a good trigger should "break like glass" need guide you when adjustment is made.
3. Point of aim. Just the target you use can affect groups. After trying many I now only use a light coloured 1" square, this I quarter with the cross hairs and seeing you're using similar magnification you'll find this method can give better results than focussing on a defined aiming point. With some of the better hunting rifles in our stable 1/4" groups are indeed possible.

I'll add another possibly controversial factor.....noise.
I have several rifles with cans and one might assume you can shoot the same groups with a suppressed rifle without additional hearing compared to with muffs or plugs.
Good luck, I can't.
Decades of field shooting has programmed my subconscious to expect pain from the report of a center fire rifle BUT those decades also have trained my brain to never expect pain when wearing muffs.
Shoot some groups with and without muffs, you might be surprised.

I am not bothered by reasonable heavy recoil. I despise the loud report from a rifle at a covered range. I now wear earplugs and muffs. I do not flinch any more with a hunting center fire than I do with a 22 now. My triggers are Calvin Elites set under 2lbs. I could definitely get better targets.

 

[cath8r]

I don't have near the experience of most posting here but this works for me.
I find a load that is reasonable accurate by usually doing some manner of ladder test. Shoot a few 5 round groups allowing 2 mins between shots.
Then I set a target at my zero distance 150 yards, 200, 300 whichever I want this hunting rifle to be zeroed at and shoot 1 shot after judicious dry firing before hand making extra sure my crosshairs are staying still as I squeeze the trigger and after trigger breaks. I'll do this over the course of a week and end up with a 5 shot group.
I'm mainly concerned where my first shot goes with hunting rifles. It works for me.

 

[Brians356]

If you can, have someone you know is a really good bench shooter print a couple of groups through your rifle. Watch them carefully, you might pick up on something. If they do noticeably better than you, have them watch you shooting and see if they notice anything about your technique. OTOH if their groups look pretty much like yours, you should just go hunting and save yourself aggravation and powder.
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[Brians356]

Lots of trigger time is great but without focusing on every action I am taking during each shot and working to make that consistent I found I was just burning components and the barrel throat.

This is what elevates shooting to an Olympic sport. Self-awareness and focused training are as important as talent and equipment. Not unlike golf, where mindlessly whacking hundreds of balls on the driving range usually just reinforces bad habits, and strengthens the wrong muscles, i.e. it does more harm than good.

I don't mind load development, but I find I enjoy hunting, and surprising myself by hitting small targets in the field, more than shooting the odd one-hole group. I started questioning my bench shooting technique, but finally decided I really didn't want to pursue excellence there, but rather decided to go out and enjoy hunting with what I know are "accurate enough" rifles and loads. I usually do better than should be expected.

Since my hunting buddy passed away last year (hunting, for me, is not an enjoyable solitary activity) I have started to get interested again in bench shooting and load development, and there's plenty of room for improvement!
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