going to try longer ranges (noob questions)

[edward_kaleigh]

this is my first post here. i have been shootin for 15 years and found a range a couple hours from my house that has all the way up to 1000 yard range. and it is only 10 bucks a day and has matches ounce a month open to anyone with a gun and bullets. i have been limited to 100 yard ranges since i have been shooting and only a couple of times got to shoot 250 yards. i also have been reloading for five years. (all redding stuff)

i have a ruger gunsite, bushmaster ar15 a3 and cz527 American in .223 with a 12 twist.

is it possible to get out to 500 yards with the cz or am i doomed because of the twist to shorter ranges. i would like to get a different gun but funds are limited (i need windows). i want to try hornady 53vmax, because of the bc and this gun shoots great with the 50vmax at a 100 yards. guess i just need to know what to do to get the most out of this rifle till i can get something else and figure out what i want.

 

[TAJ45]

I pulled down the Hornady manual for ballistics, the Nosler manual for an idea of velocity capability and this is what I found to get you started:

50gr V-Max, BC of .242 @ 3500 , zero @ 200 = -40" @ 500

55gr V-Max BC of .255 @ 3300 zero @ 200 = -44" @ 500.

60gr V-Max BC of .265 @ 3200 zero @ 200 = -46" @ 500.

If you zero @ 100, add 5.3", 6.4" & 5.1" respectively.

Your 60gr pills gonna be doing some crazy things @ 1K.....after they get there.

You may be able to find something past the 60gr that will stabilize in your 12tw but you are not going to gain a whole heckuva lot ballistically.

The club I shoot with, the LR guys are 8-7tw avg and shooting the 77s. They say the those are better than the Sierra 80s. I have no personal experience with the heavies in a small cal.

An interesting point to give some idea of drop, a 308, 165gr starting around 2600 will drop 85" from 600 to 800yds.........a fellow had a ballistic calc on his pocket elec device and said that the 155 or 168 goes sub sonic around 935 yds and drops another 6' to reach 1K. This really tends to emphasize the necessity of a range finder if lonnnng shots are going to be attempted on game animals.

In the Nosler manual, with their bullets used in the tests, Benchmark was good for both the 50 & 55s for max velocity. H4895 is what they showed for their 60gr as being fastest.

Hope this gives you somewhere to start the mental process of piecing the parts together.

 

[357Mag]

Edward -

Howdy !

Take a look @ the ballistics charts. I'm inclined to believe that the 55s will pull ahead of the lighter bullets, as regards wind deflection.
A " boat tail " bullet can help minimize velocity losses / flatness of trajectory some, especially out past around 450yd.

For an aero FB, JLK used to make ( but not advertise ) a really swoopy .224" cal 55gr HP; w/ an ogive like 12+.
These wouldn't give up too much, to a lesser BC 55gr BT.

Whatever bullet you shoot, I recommend you put-in some serious range time @ 500, before taking-on very much 1,000yd work.
And, have your applicable load's ballistics charts at-hand; so that you know the " come ups " that allow you to go from 100yd
incrementally out to 500.

This is the route' I went ( 500yd work, before trying 1,000). My first ever shot taken @ 1,000, I managed to put the bullet through
an 8" paper plate @ 1,000. That was when shooting my rifle w/ scope adjusted per what the ballistics calc had showed.
That may not sound like much of an accomplishment, to a lot of the more highly experienced LR shooters; here.
But to me, being that close on my first ever try @ 1,000, gave me a much-needed confidence boost; that I could do 1,000.

IMHO - If you're gonna stick w/ use of a .224" cal rifle for the ranges you discussed, you might want to at least consider potential future use of a larger-capacity .224" cal case ? These can impart a bit more performance margin, for those longer ranges.


Best of luck in your endeavors !


With regards,
357Mag

 

[MGYSGT]

500 yards with the CZ is going to be easy. You should also do well with the AR at that range. One thing to lood at is your scope. Don't know what you have, but some of the lesser scopes don't have vey much elevation. If that is the case for you then look at the Burris rings with the plastic inserts for + or - MOA.

Tom

 

[Hosted]

I think you are on the right track with the 53gr Vmax for that range. I usually shoot 68-75gr at the range but have shot some 55gr Nosler Ballistic Tips at 500 and was just fine once you got everything dialed in. I'm planning on trying the 53gr VMax his year for groundhogs because I believe they have the best ballistic coefficient in that weight category. You'll have no problems as long as the wind isn't blowing to hard. Run your loads through jbm and get an approximate drop to dial in and go shoot.

Edit: After reading the posts below I want to specify this is for 500 yards. I'd load quite a bit of ammo and start at 100 yards and get comfortable and work your way back. You may find your groups open up enough at 300 or 400 yardsto call it quits there but the best way to find out is get out there and try it.

 

[Lapua40X]

My advice would be to determine where you load goes sub-sonic, deduct 100 yards, and figure that's your play ground. The .223 (with heavier bullets and faster twist) is capable of making a good impression at 1k when the wind is at or near zero, but with what you describe it would, IMO, be an exercise in futility to try and push it to 1k.

 

[CatShooter]

I disagree with Lapua40x and gstaylorg.

I shoot 50 and 55 grain bullets at long range often, and do not run into sonic walls. Several of my better 224" rifles will old under 1/2 moa on at 500yds on decent days. There is nothing to the talk about trans-sonic.
Myself and 10's of thousands of other shooters shoot at very long range, well past the point where the bullet falls below the speed of sound, and nothing bad happens.

 

[Lapua40X]

I disagree with Lapua40x and gstaylorg.

I shoot 50 and 55 grain bullets at long range often, and do not run into sonic walls. Several of my better 224" rifles will old under 1/2 moa on at 500yds on decent days. There is nothing to the talk about trans-sonic.
Myself and 10's of thousands of other shooters shoot at very long range, well past the point where the bullet falls below the speed of sound, and nothing bad happens.

edward_kaleigh -
You'll often find, in this forum, a difference of opinion. Quite often, those differences surface because of beliefs (sometimes based on experience) that are held to be absolutes. Technically, your .223 will shoot out to 1k. Likewise, a .22 rimfire will shoot out to 1k and if you had a couple of hundred feet of vertical adjustment in your scope that .22 rimfire might even contact the target. The question in my mind would be, is that a practical distance and an effective range for light weight small caliber bullets. IMO, the answer is a resounding NO. I've worked with the .223 (Remington 700 XR-100 1:12 - 50gr Nosler Spitzer on top of 25.9gr H335) which performed quite well out to 800 yards in little or no wind. If you want to play with 1k challenges with the setup you describe, by all means go for it. Just remember that if you can't put your shots into an 8 inch circle at the distance you choose to shoot you're shooting beyond your personal effective range capabilities, regardless of the rifle you've chosen.

 

[edward_kaleigh]

thanks everyone

i must clarify what i was talking about, first i just want to make sure i can shoot out to 500 with light bullets with my cz and not be totally out gunned. i know a 223 is hard pressed to do 1000 no matter how good your gun is and what bullets you have. i eventually want to get another gun dedicated to shooting long ranges after i learn everything i can to make good decisions on what i get. (maybe a 6mm or 7-08) guess i wanted to make sure that my cz could get out far enough to really starting learning shoot long distance.

and you guys have a great forum, you guys are helpful and don't look down to new people. wish i could say other forums were like that.

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

I shot .223 Remington for years in F-class from 300 to 1000 yards. My rifle had an 1:8 twist at the start and then I rebarreled with a 1:7.7 Krieger.

I initialy started with 77gr at 300 and 80grs at 600; a leftover from my Service Rifle days where maglength was a parameter. I stopped using the 77 and switched to 80s for all distances, 300, 500, 600 and LR. I could do OK when the wind was not too bad, but on the windier days, it was better to just stay home.

I tried some of the 75 A-Max at 1000 yards and it was very difficult to keep supersonic at 1000 yards, especially on "cold" days in south Texas.

You should have no problems keeping pretty much anything supersonic at 500 yards, but the converse is also true, you will have a problem getting anything supersonic at 1000 yards, even past 800 yards.

Most bullets go transonic without getting too upset, but the problem is the time in the wind. Your bullets are going to get blown around at 1000 yards. A lot.

At 500 yards, you should have fun, the bullets won't move too much and you should be on target, but that depends on what the target looks like at that distance. If you are going to compete with others who shoot heavier, higher BC bullets, unless you are a wizard at reading the wind and they are completely obtuse, you're going to fell outgunned.

An easy fix would be a barrel change.

 

[M14AMU]

In the meantime....spend your available minutes reading this:

http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com/p/articles-index.html

Click on Articles Index!

 

[jonbearman]

What I would do to be less ballistically challenged would be to buy a remington 700 and convert it to 6mmBR so you can have way more fun with distance shooting and leave the .223 for your 100 - 500 yard fun. I know this is alittle off topic however it would be in your best interest to consider doing one just for the simple reason that the 6mm's are superior in every way.

 

[Steve Ladino]

Sorry to hear that you need to travel so far to shoot the distance you are interested in shooting. If you have a 30-06 or similar long range bolt action in your arsenal you might consider practicing with them before attempting 500 with a .223. There is a lot to be learned by doing and this practice could make the time pass until you get your new windows and help you determine just what gun to get when the funds become available to you.

 

['Freak]

Try arcing .22LR out to 300 yards for practice at distance when you don’t have access to real distance. Depending on ammo choice, if you zeroed at 50 yards you will get 300 yard drops between 9 to nearing 13 feet, and if there’s any wind involved…

 

[C. Collins]

Sell the cz and the ruger. Then buy a savage 12 target rifle.