Go NoGo Guage

[WANTASHOOT]

I have aquired a custom target rifle that seems to have a headspace problem. The rifle is a mauser M98 action with a Kreiger barrel and wood laminate stock. It is chambered in what seems to be a one off Wildcat. The seller called it a 6.5-06JME which he says is very similar to an Ackley Improved. I am getting protruding primers when fired.

What I have done so far is this. Removed bullet and powder and fired only the primer. The primer protruded about .025. I also took some loaded ammo and put tape on the head of the cartridge and closed the bolt. Goes right in.

My questions are this. How do I determine if the headspace problem stems from the reloading of the cartridge or assembly of the gun.

I have a gunsmith that I can take the gun to but it will be several months before I can get the gun to him as he lives over 1000 miles away.

I purchased the gun knowing I would run into problems so I could learn from them. I have tons of 270 brass that I could start over fresh with but I dont know the dimensions I am supposed to have when setting up my dies. I could easily get myself back into the same situation. Maybe a chamber casting or something.

Sorry for being long winded but I know you can't answer my question if my info is not complete.

 

[Rustystud]

Can't answer your questions completely but will say this.

1. Primers don't generate enough presure to expand in the cup and will back out if no powder is burned.

2. Your headspacing problem may be a brass problem. Wildcats need to fire form. If your cases are being bumped back too much this could be your problem.

Find someone in your area with wildcat experience, and or read P.O. Ackley's books.

Rustystud

 

[DaveTooley]

What do have in the way of sizing dies? As Nat said, wildcats are fireformed to fit the chamber, once that is done everything is self inflicted. Sounds like a reloading problem.

Dave Tooley

 

[clowdis]

It sounds like you may have a headspace problem with the brass and dies that you have. Masking tape is usually about .004 thick and with that on the back of a new piece of brass the bolt shouldn't close,bolt should be stripped and used as a "feeler gauge" to test). You can fireform the brass by seating the bullet into the lands and firing a minimum to mid range load in the rifle. Once you have the brass fireformed use a RCBS mike or some other check instrument to set the sizing die to set the shoulder back about .002. Then you should be good to go. Often someone will do an "Ackley" job on a chamber without setting the barrel back a thread and this more often than not will create a little bit of extra headspace when used with a standard case.

 

[WANTASHOOT]

Rusty and Dave

I hope your correct on the reloading issue. I was examining some of the rounds I have and found some with non protruding primers. I dont have any measuring tools,I work away from home during the week) with me here but you could see a distinct difference in the length of the case.

As far as the dies I have, I do not know. They came with the gun. The dies have labels on them but do not have any manufacturer information. I think they are custom made. One set is short with no adjusters on the top. The other set is long with adjusters on the top more traditional looking.

 

[Rustystud]

Do you have a print of the cartridge? You need to know what the chamber is so you can compare your brass dimentions to your chamber dimentions. It is easy to bump your shoulder back to much. How anybody reloads without measuring devices is beyond me. Buy, borrow, or steal the tools you need. You need to know the datum point on your case or have a insert for a measureing device with the right shoulder angle.

With wildcatting it is easier and less expensive to make the brass fit the gun than to make the gun fit the brass.

If you don't have a chamber print make a creosafe cast of the chamber.

Rustystud

 

[WANTASHOOT]

Thanks Rusty
I have no Idea on the chamber dimensions. This is a one of a kind wildcat and the original Smith, John Echenroe is not reachable yet. I am still learning about this so I appreciate your assistance.

One thing I can't grasp at this point is what happens in the chamber when a cartridge fires with excessive headspace. I assume the bearing surface on the sides of the case is great enough to keep the cartridge from sliding back into the bolt. However untill now I assumed bolt thrust would drive the cartridge into the bolt and not allow primers to protrude. -

I will get a cerosafe casting made. I have tools just not with me, due to the fact I work out of town. I will have to fabricate one of the tools I need but shouldn't be a problem. So far all the ammo I have is either loaded or has been fired and thus has already had the shoulder bumped back I assume. I have a box of 270 brass that came with the gun I will have to try my hand at sizing and fire forming some .

 

[DaveTooley]

What's the before and after dimensions of the brass when you size it? That may tell all.

I haven't heard from John in many years but recall he was a pretty sharp guy. This may be as simple as adjusting the dies to fit the chamber/fired brass.

If you have any brass that hasn't been fire formed yet, seat a bullet long enough that it is jambed into the lands. Put a light coat of case lube on the brass and fire it. Then neck size if possible and fire it again. If you can't neck size, back off the sizing die until you size half the neck. This should give you a starting point to figure out what the dies are doing to the brass. Then look for dimensional changes when you size it. Since they appear to be custom dies, the dies may be the part of this that is not head spaced properly.I suspect you are pushing the shoulder back to far.

Dave

 

[WANTASHOOT]

Thanks Dave

I haven't done any reloading yet. I am trying to figure out what is going on so I don't end up with a case head separation. I recived about 650 rounds of ammo with the gun, some loaded some sized with primers, and some just fired. I noticed there were issues prior to firing any of the existing ammo. I don't have enough experience with this stuff to know exactly what was wrong. I figured there was a problem with the loading but I am a pescimist,spelling) and also assume the problem is in the gun. I have taken multiple pieces of brass and did the scotchtape thing and tried to close the bolt and it closes just fine. Too much headspace right. Still don't know the reason, Shoulder Bumped too far, Chamber not right etccc.... I have lots of things left to figure this out. Most importantly I have to learn how.

Do you know anyone who may have stayed in touch with John. I am sure he could get me the dimensions I am supposed to have for the cartridge.

 

[DaveTooley]

Within reason the shoulder on a wildcat is always in the right place after fire forming. It's what you do after that can cause problems.

Good Luck
Dave

 

[bcp]

Maybe it was designed for, or you could use 280 Rem brass to reform. The 280 Rem is longer bodied than 30-06, 25-06, or 270 brass.

Bruce

 

[wal]

WANTASHOOT

Remove your fire pin assembly from your bolt body, grab one of your fired sized cases and chamber in rifle. Once chambered check to see if your bolt will move in and out to see if your creating headspace with your dies. If there is no movement you can rule out your dies. If there is movement your sizing your cases to far, back your die off until you can close the bolt on a sized case without bolt movement. I would suggest getting a Hornady 6.5 do all neck sizer if cases arent tight.

With your new brass chamber a case and check bolt body movement. You may have headspace with new brass, therefore need to create a false shoulder in the neck. Buy expanding to .284 then neck sizing with a 6.5. Only neck down slightly at a time until you can chamber the case firm with the bolt body. Providing the chamber has been correctly headspaced your case will not seperate on firing.


wal

 

[gunrx]

Wantashoot
You could just load one of your cases with a large pistol primer, install 25 grains of red dot shotgun powder, and fill the rest of the case with toilet paper. Fire this and it will form the case to the chamber wall and iron the neck into place. I know, it sounds like hell, but it works. No danger of separating a case, though it makes alot of confetti. This will give you an idea of what the chamber should look like.

 

[wal]

WANTASHOOT

Using shotgun powder with toilet paper/dacron does work you dont need pistol primers its quick powder.,make sure you ram the toilet paper in tight)
I would suggest creating that false shoulder this stops stretching the webbing of your new brass. Cases dont have to move forward before moving back to bolt face that way. Its eaiser to create false shoulder then load a light/mid range load with a bullet.

wal

 

[WANTASHOOT]

Well I have some updates. I took all the advice you all so kindly gave. I have learned allot from the assistance you gentlemen have provided Thanks.

I have created a cerrosafe chamber casting and from what I can tell all the ammo I recieved with the rifle was bumped back too far when reloading. Most of the ammo is winchester or LC. I think I will start fresh with some Lapua and work up my own loads.

I also discovered that it is a tight neck chamber and I will most likely have to turn some necks. I am also going to have to trim the cases for the first loading. I will start preping cases soon sorting, triming, turning etc...

I will keep you posted Thanks again for the help.