Getting VLDs to shoot in your rifle

[EricStecker]

There have been some exciting discoveries by those shooting VLDs who struggled when they put the VLD into the lands. Attached is a write up detailing the back ground and solution. For those of you who shoot VLDs jammed in the lands and achieve success I suggest you have no reason to try this solution.

This write up will soon be available on our website blog.

Regards,
Eric

 

[RBD]

Thanks for posting this, Eric-

My boss spoke with Jerry Tierney last night--they're old friends--but I had been following the posts on the various forums.

This can only help with the already excellent VLDs.

RBD

 

[boltman13]

Eric, this is very helpful info. Thanks for sharing. Love your bullets. Am looking forward to testing your 6.5 VLD's in my new 6.5 Creedmore when its ready.

 

[chris308]

Has anyone tried jumping 105vld's in a 6br? Seems like .015-.020 IN has always been the text book start length but I'm begining to wonder. I have never tried jumping these at all and was curious. chris

 

[3gunf1guy]

OK, I downloaded the instruction and I was just wondering if anyone has tried this method of finding the sweet spot. My last gun was .007 into the lands and if I went .010 it would throw flyers. But wow .120 off the lands, that does seem like a mile long of a jump.
I'm going to try this in my 6.5 creedmoor with the 140 vld's

Scott

 

[EricStecker]

Chris and Scott,

The remarkable aspect of this solution is the consistent inconsistecy. What I mean is the there seems to be no specific COAL that works best for all or most rifles but each rifle has a sweet spot somewhere between a jam and .150 off.

After posting this write up on several forums we are getting more and more reports that this test works in finding the sweet spot. Shooters are reporting 3/8 MOA at 100 yards which was mostly unheard of from VLDs,typically VLDs were reported to shoot best at 300 yards or more).

Give it a try and see if the same is true for your rifle and keep in mind the COAL you have been using may be in your sweet spot.

Regards,
Eric

 

[chris308]

Eric, the article on this is very helpfull. I have about 200rds of 6br/105 loaded to test next week if the weather is well. I initially seated them .015 into the lands to start testing with because that is what is 'supposed' to work best. But after reading this I bumped them back to .005 off. I have never jumped Vld's at the lengths you described and am looking forward to seeing any difference.

I must add that I could never get the .30cal 210's to shoot well jammed in both a 300wsm and a 30/338wm. The 168vld's never shot well jammed in my 308's and the 140,6.5 vld's never shot well jammed in my 6.5/284's.

As far as the 105's they shot ok jammed but I would get fliers here and there.I initially blamed it on wobbly wood benches here along with technique errors but I'm wondering now.

thanks for your excellent tech support...chris

 

[2506]

I found this article very informative. I had discovered this very thing while working up a hunting load last year for my 30X47 HBR using the 155 VLD. I did not want to have to jam the bullet because of having to remove the round if you don't shoot it. I tried getting it as close to the lands as possible and it shot pretty good but then the round would not feed through the magazine. So I loaded the bullet a lot deeper into the case so it would just work through the magazine. When I shot the first three rounds from 100 yards they literally went into the same hole. I thought this was a fluke but I did it again. I had found years ago that with my 25-06 and 117 gr Sierra pro hunters that they shoot best between 30 & 40 thousands off the lands. I does pay to have an open mind and experiment. Oh! I killed a deer with the 30X47 HBR and the 155 VLD's going 2750 fps at 112 yards broadside through the shoulders. It blew a baseball size exit hole and pulped the heart and lungs. The deer did run about 50 yards before going down. For some reason the deer were tougher this year. I also had, for the first time ever in over 150 deer shot with a 25-06 through the front shoulders, a deer get up off the ground after dropping like a rock and run about 50 yards before it went down for good. Those things just happen once in a while.

 

[Forum Boss]

From today's Bulletin... Just wanted you guys to stay safe:

OBSERVATION and WARNING
Berger may definitely be on to something here, and we applaud Berger’s testers for testing a very broad range of seating depths. However, we want to issue a STRONG WARNING to reloaders who may be inclined to try the 4-step method listed above.

Be aware that, as you load your cartridge progressively shorter, putting the bullet deeper into the case, you will be reducing the effective case capacity dramatically. With smaller cases, such as the .223 Rem and 6mmBR, moving from .010″ into the lands to .080 and .120 off the lands can CAUSE a dramatic pressure rise. So, a load .010″ into the lands that may be safe can be WAY OVERPRESSURE with the bullet is moved .120″ off the lands,i.e. .130″ deeper in the case, the difference between .010″ in and .0120″ out).

To illustrate, using a QuickLoad simulation for the 6mmBR cartridge, moving the bullet 0.130″ deeper into the case can raise pressures dramatically. With the Berger 105 VLD seated .010″ in the lands,with 0.220 of bearing surface in the neck), and a charge of 30.0 grains of Varget, QuickLoad predicts 60,887 psi.,This is using ADI 2208 data, and a 5500 psi start initiation value). If we move the bullet back 0.130″ further into the case, QuickLoad predicts 64,420 psi,even after we drop start initiation pressure to the “default” non-jammed 3625 psi value). The 64,420 psi level is way higher!

Cartridge & Load COAL Jam/Jump Start Pressure Max Pressure
6mmBR, 30.0 Varget
Berger 105 VLD 2.354″ 0.010″ JAM 5500 psi 60,887 psi
6mmBR, 30.0 Varget
Berger 105 VLD 2.224″ 0.120″ JUMP 3625 psi 64,420 psi


NOTE: This is only a software simulation, and the real pressures you encounter may be different. But, the point is that moving the bullet 0.130″ further down in a 6mmBR case can raise pressures more than 3,000 psi! Therefore, you must employ EXTREME CAUTION when moving your bullets that much in a relatively small case. Remember that going from .010″ jam to a very long jump will probably increase pressures in your cartridge so you MUST adjust your load accordingly.

 

[chino1969]

Has anyone tried jumping 105vld's in a 6br? Seems like .015-.020 IN has always been the text book start length but I'm begining to wonder. I have never tried jumping these at all and was curious. chris

Yes!
I was shooting 105 Berger VLDs in a 6mm BR Kreiger 1:7.5 twist rifle touching the lands. They were shooting o.k. but I instinctively knew the rifle was capable of better. I e-mailed Eric, followed his suggestion of jumping the bullets and found my 'tune' to be .083 off the lands. The results were phenomenol as I was ready to give up on this bullet. I expect to win some groundhog shoots this year with this rifle and bullet.

Lou Baccino

 

[daj]

Eric,

Thanks for the VLD tips. I immediately ran the numbers for my .260 on QL and found that some of the theoretical consequences of changing from 10T jam to 120T jump are pressure up 3,300psi, velocity up 50fps, and barrel time down 35mS.

If I already have a well tuned load, should I try to keep pressure or velocity or BT constant,using QL) as I increase the jump or should I adjust to the best jump and then rework the powder charge using that best jump?

David

 

[blurry6]

That's a good question David,... I also have a .260 and am interested in the answer. I've had good results, as it seems you have, utilizing QL to determine optimum BT, but I'm not entirely sold on QL's ability to accurately model my rifle/load combo across all combinations. While I like the idea of adjusting charge weight as per seating depth to hit the right node, it's also just another variable that QL's modeling might/might-not represent accurately. You could end up chasing your tail,... but hey,... I think it's worth a shot

Ryan

 

[EricStecker]

I appreciate Paul pointing out that everyone needs to be aware of what their load is doing. If you are on the hot side already you could be risking damage or injury if you do something that pushes your pressures even higher.

Those who have conducted the 4 COAL test have not reported changing their load as they change their COAL. It is my opinion that to scientifically test the 4 COAL solution you need to use a load that is the same for all COAL.

If you are shooting a hot load to begin with then you should lower your load to a safer level and then conduct the 4 COAL test. After you find your sweet spot you can start to work your load back up. It will be interesting to see if the sweet spot moves or changes.

Given the many variables in reloading and reloading components I cannot begin to provide suggestions on how much a given load should be reduced for the 4 COAL test or if it should be reduced at all.

Given the amount that different lots of powder can vary I question whether the difference illustrated is inconsistent with the amount pressure could change by simply changing lots of powder.

In a recent thick vs. standard jacket test we used the same load,weighed charges not thrown) as was used a year earlier,same type of powder but a different lot) and the resulting velocity difference was over 150 fps higher than the other lot at exactly the same charge.

The pressure was not measured but it reinforced in me something very important. Working to achieve the extreme out of anything rifle realted is a bad idea and has significant potential for damaged gear,we broke two extractors), injury or worse.

Regards,
Eric

 

[tsiero]

Most of the time my guns like all bullets shot .007 to .012' off the lands. Seldom do they like to be jammed and if they do, I don't prefer that application. Get that you are updating the shooters to think out of the box.

 

[3gunf1guy]

I went and tried this on sat. I was a little nervous about the 120t off due the pressure I thought that it might make in my gun. BTW 6.5 Creedmoor using 43.0 gr of H4350 pushing the 140's at about 2880fps. I found that the 40t off the lands shot the best for me. I tried this with the 140VLD and I also tried some 130VLD. I'll try that setting and work up some loads with different powder charges and primers to see if that helps the groups even more. BTW I wonder if this method will work for 142SMK's also.

Scott

 

[johara1]

It seems to me if you have to jump the vld .120 and it works,i would extend the free bore some to drop the pressure.By moving the bullet forward you would pick up a little more case capacity,that would be a win win situation.....jim

 

[LongRanger]

While I can see it happening with large volume .30 caliber or commercial spec cartridges-chambers, I doubt there are many competitive shooters, the guys who maximize case volume, who would find it feasible to jump their .22, 6mm or 6.5mm bullets .120'. I usually work with a scant .040 from bullet base to top of powder....barely enough for another layer of powder that is already compacted with looong drop tube. If I tried to seat .120 it would probably squirt the primers out...,had it happen last year on an 'experienced' case.

Frank

 

[gbp]

Eric, thank you for this information. I am sure it will benifit a lot of people. I hope you do not mind but I reposted this information over at PLRH for the members there.

 

[normmatzen]

I took my brand new just completed home made Savage PTA, Shilen 1 in 8 twist bull barrel in re-finished BVSS stock and a wimpy scope to the range for the first time. It's a 243 WIN and I loaded with 105 A-MAX, started with 36g H4350 in new Lapua cases. I tried the Berger routine and found the 0.120 jump did the best 3 shot group. All three holes touching at 100 yd.

This in the first 20 shots in the gun!

This group is especially remarkable based on my total lack of skill and procedure with a gun of this potential.Can't wait till I load another batch and zero in on a sweet combo.