Gauging interest in affordable bullet-pointing die??

[JasonT]

Hey folks, I know this is my first post, but I thought I might as well jump right in!

My name is Jason, and I'm a engineer and prototyper by day, but a gunsmith by night. I wanted to combine those 2 ideas for a potential product.

So I'd been doing some CAD modeling and research on aerodynamics as of late, and the Whidden/Hoover Bullet Pointing System kept popping up. So I decided to take a look at the design to figure out how it worked. I really like it! It's solid, adjustable, and customizable to just about any bullet.

But I definitely saw room for improvement in two main areas: simplicity and cost. With all of the different sleeves, pointing plugs, etc... the system is definitely more complex that it would need to be. As far as cost goes, a full range of 8 sleeves, 3 pointing plugs, and the die body would go for more than $640. While that's certainly OK for the dedicated Benchrest shooter who's sponsored and paid to shoot, it's far too much money for the average Joe.

As such, I've come up with an idea (and a prototype) for a bullet pointing die that would:
a. Not infringe on the Whidden/Hoover patent. It's a great system, but more complicated and expensive than it needs to be for the average long range shooter.
b. Be much less complex than the Whidden/Hoover design while retaining 90-95% of its abilities.
c. Cost less than $200 for the whole system of 8 calibers and 2-3 pointing plugs.

Does anybody have any interest in something like this? I know it's made a difference in my long-range targets already.


Best wishes,

Jason

 

[johara1]

I think you need to speak with Jim Hardy, about patents and pointers first…….. jim

 

[JasonT]

Thanks Jim! It's awesome to hear from someone of your caliber (no pun intended)! How might I contact Jim Hardy? Is he on this forum?

 

[WindSurgeon]

To answer your question, yes there would be interest. But I would sharpen my pencil on what elasticity is in the price at different price points associated with "simpler, easier, better". FWIW, At $200, I'd just buy what I perceive is better because the price difference is not significant enough to drive me to look any further than a Whidden at $219 (Sinclair). Assuming it performs the same, I would line up to buy one if it was in line with the price of a high quality competition seating die or similar. Everyone is going to have a different price point in mind. You really need to figure out what amount of "simpler, easier, better" drives to the price point you need to realize. That would take a lot of feedback from the shooting community that has a need for a pointing system.

 

[XTR]

Remember the average shooter isn't buying the full set of sleeves and pointers either. I have one for 308 and one for 223. I'm sure that there are guys out there that have only one for 7mm or maybe one for 6mm. Most of us don't shoot that many different calibers.

Another consideration is just how many do you think you can sell to make it worth your while. If you cut the price to $100/ea, what is your cost, how many a yr do you think you can sell, and hmm...

 

[Marksman63]

Please, do it!

 

[rickiesrevenge]

What are you giving up in the 5-10%?

 

[JasonT]

Wow it's awesome to hear from people who know so much about the sport!! Thanks so much for the comments! That will definitely help guide my direction.

Windsurgeon, XTR, Marksman63 - I'm flattered that folks with your experience in the sport cared enough to help out! There's a system I'm finishing up that would work with a specific seater die - I could possibly sell a 1-2 caliber system and 2 pointing plugs with the die for the $100 benchmark. I'd be happy provide samples to you guys for evaluation/review. I'm eager to have such established shooters try out my idea! I'd only ask for discretion about posting pictures/details of the design until I finalize the look/feel of the final product. PM me for more info about it.

Rickie: The 5-10% would be the micrometer stem top piece in all likelihood. Because each lot (or even box) of bullets is going to have a slightly different overall length/tip shape, you're constantly changing the micro-adjustments anyway. If possible, I'd like to simplify it so that it's more affordable and easier to use.

 

[Snuggie]

Wow it's awesome to hear from people who know so much about the sport!! Thanks so much for the comments! That will definitely help guide my direction.

Windsurgeon, XTR, Marksman63 - I'm flattered that folks with your experience in the sport cared enough to help out! There's a system I'm finishing up that would work with a specific seater die - I could possibly sell a 1-2 caliber system and 2 pointing plugs with the die for the $100 benchmark. I'd be happy provide samples to you guys for evaluation/review. I'm eager to have such established shooters try out my idea! I'd only ask for discretion about posting pictures/details of the design until I finalize the look/feel of the final product. PM me for more info about it.

Rickie: The 5-10% would be the micrometer stem top piece in all likelihood. Because each lot (or even box) of bullets is going to have a slightly different overall length/tip shape, you're constantly changing the micro-adjustments anyway. If possible, I'd like to simplify it so that it's more affordable and easier to use.

 

[Snuggie]

I have the Whidden for both .308 and .223. Yes, the 80 gr SMK's are a pain to point due to the tips ( I do not trim meplats, another bigger pain ). And yes you do have to Sneak up on them when seating. With that being said, the last box of 500 that I got came pointed from the factory! This may be a new route that they are taking to be more competitive. Just my two cents. Snuggle.

 

[JasonT]

Snuggie thanks for that info - I wasn't aware that Sierra was pointing their bullets now. Have you seen this on any other of their bullets?

To those who would like to try a prototype and provide an unbiased review, PM me for details.

 

[WindSurgeon]

Snuggie thanks for that info - I wasn't aware that Sierra was pointing their bullets now. Have you seen this on any other of their bullets?

To those who would like to try a prototype and provide an unbiased review, PM me for details.

Sierra is the only one at this point. I am sure they are all talking about it but the process has to translate into upside not just cost. I am a loyal Berger user after inconsistency with Sierra and Hornady. If Berger made them pointed I would buy them. If they don't, I'd still buy them over Sierra. I think consistent dimensions and weight are more important than pointy. We can buy Amax target bullets now which are as pointy as they come, but they are not as consistent as I would like them to be. Therefore, I would still buy Bergers and then trim and point them if need be.

 

[JasonT]

That's how I also feel about Berger. Aside from some occasionally frayed/lopsided tips (which pointing all but removes), they are the clear choice for mass-produced bullets. Litz knows what he's doing, especially with the Hybrid designs! I actually shoot the 230gr Hybrid Target bullet from my long-throated .308 - and it's scary accurate. Even at 1100 yards I'm just becoming transonic.

However, pointing does seem to shrink my vertical spread by a couple of inches at 1000.

 

[Endyo]

Hey Jason,

Glad to see you here on the forums. I think there would be an interest for another bullet pointing product on the market.

The few catch falls as mostly mentioned above are:

1. Small Niche clientele. Long Range shooters demand extreme precision in bullets and loaded ammo the other 95% of shooters are happy to hit a gong at 1,000 yards.
2. Possible Patent issues. If it can be worked out than there is no issue here, if not than you're dead in the water.
3. This is a pretty established market. Whidden has brand awareness and the reputation of a great shooter in the sport. Hoover (which I just received today) is the next big name that comes to mind.
4. It's going to be very difficult to enter the market with the above named reasons. Shooters are willing to try new things but if they already have something that does this very specific task at hand they likely won't buy another.

Additionally, if what they have breaks they'll likely seek to replace with the same brand unless something is cooler/newer/better or cheaper.

In order to compete with the other guys you have to either A.) Redesign the wheel so to speak (Product Differentiation) B.) Compete as the price leader.

Your idea of making a complete kit is great. However, while you're adding value for the consumer (one they may not need) you're also adding cost. Which puts you in the same price point as your two main competitors who hold like 80%-90% of the market share. Because your product performs the same function as the others there will be very little product differentiation unless as mentioned you include a way to trim meplats and then point. Which Hoover actually does offer and strongly suggest you use both products.

So that leaves us with...B.) Price Leader

I think the others have given you a solid price point to meet $100 range. You will then expand the market to other's who can now afford a bullet pointing system who otherwise would not have been a consumer. And be the PRICE LEADER. Which I think is going to be your best friend entering this niche market.

I would do the base system for $100ish and allow the end consumer to purchase the caliber conversions for say $10. For $100-$140 you will probably start doing very well.

You still need to establish a reputation. A risk-free no questions asked return policy may also be your best friend. Something like Sinclair offers. You can send "refurb" units at a discount to better help others enter the market. But then you have to assess if the cost of doing this extra step worth it.

I wish you the best. I hope the product comes to market!

~Jimmy

 

[JasonT]

Jimmy, thanks for taking the time to come up with that response! I'll see if I can clear up any issues for you.

1. The small niche clientele issue is a real one, but my goal is to bring a more user-friendly and wallet-friendly idea to market to spark the interest of more than 5% of long-range shooters.
2. As far as patent issues go, I have my council looking into previous patents across the whole world, just to make sure I'm not stepping on toes. I can assure you, the system is different from the Hoover/Whidden-type systems.
3. Brand awareness is the biggest issue I see - I've got several quite established shooters on-board who will be reviewing the prototypes and providing feedback once the provisional patent clears (already submitted). But I understand that John Whidden is an amazing shooter, and his product is certainly great!
4. I agree, and suspect that most of the best F-class shooters already have the Whidden/Hoover die. But I think your following points are worth note. I'll likely be bringing the base system to market at the $100-$150 price point (no guarantees yet). Like I said in point 1, I want to open up this technology to the shooter who loves precision, but may not be able to justify nearly $300 to point their bullets.

Once again, I really appreciate your time and effort, and I'm excited for the next couple of months - the refinement of a prototype is always fun for me.

I can assure all who read this that my die system will be the best it possibly can be. As an engineer, I'll accept nothing less.

Best wishes,
Jason

 

[JasonT]

So a bunch of people, many of whom are notable F-class shooters, have mentioned to me that coming out with a Meplat Trimmer would be a good idea as well.

After a large amount of research and CAD modeling, I may have come up with a design that takes the best aspects from all different designs (Sinclair, Hoover, MCR, Giraud, WFT (technically not a meplat trimmer), etc...).

I still have yet to actually make the damn thing and try it out, so I'm sure there are surprises of which I'm unaware, but I'll keep you all posted.

Any design points you all would like incorporated?

 

[UltraBR30]

The more the merrier and lower prices are better. Look forward to seeing your design.
Philip

 

[jsthntn247]

If you make a Meplat trimmer that does what I mentioned in my PM, I'll buy one for every caliber immediately. I can point 300-400 bullets and hour but average about 60 an hour trimming with my current set up and don't get good results.

 

[Endyo]

Jimmy, thanks for taking the time to come up with that response! I'll see if I can clear up any issues for you.

1. The small niche clientele issue is a real one, but my goal is to bring a more user-friendly and wallet-friendly idea to market to spark the interest of more than 5% of long-range shooters.
2. As far as patent issues go, I have my council looking into previous patents across the whole world, just to make sure I'm not stepping on toes. I can assure you, the system is different from the Hoover/Whidden-type systems.
3. Brand awareness is the biggest issue I see - I've got several quite established shooters on-board who will be reviewing the prototypes and providing feedback once the provisional patent clears (already submitted). But I understand that John Whidden is an amazing shooter, and his product is certainly great!
4. I agree, and suspect that most of the best F-class shooters already have the Whidden/Hoover die. But I think your following points are worth note. I'll likely be bringing the base system to market at the $100-$150 price point (no guarantees yet). Like I said in point 1, I want to open up this technology to the shooter who loves precision, but may not be able to justify nearly $300 to point their bullets.

Once again, I really appreciate your time and effort, and I'm excited for the next couple of months - the refinement of a prototype is always fun for me.

I can assure all who read this that my die system will be the best it possibly can be. As an engineer, I'll accept nothing less.

Best wishes,
Jason

Absolutely,

Most of the points I laid out were actually listed above by experienced shooters and consumers. The market is telling you what it wants. It's awesome that you're listening.

From a business stand point I added some fancy terms to give you something to chew on. Likely you have thought of most or all of them, but it helps to see a consistent message.

Meplat trimmer - The best design on market that I have seen is likely the MCR. It cleans up the bevel particularly on the inside edge that the others don't. I have a Giraud and love it's ease of use and speed, but sometimes metal is pushed to the side instead of trimmed cleanly, There's ways around this, but the MCR is the only trimmer that fixes it by design.

You could alternatively distribute another person's product for Meplat trimmer if you don't have a strong desire to design your own. I think your focus is on a different/simpler more affordable pointing die.

The meplat trimmer is just the cherry on top but double the work.

 

[jsthntn247]

Why can't someone make a meplat trimmer that trims and deburs the hole at the same time? Cutters with different sized deburring points on them for each caliber would need to be experimented with but seems very doable. I hate doing it anyway, no way I'm doing two steps.