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Gas Vs Induction Annealing

This morning I loaded up and went to test if there were any differences between my brass that had been annealed by gas vs the new AMP Annealer. I shot 6 rounds on a steel plate at 500 yards to foul in the barrel and get a zero. My first group was shot with brass annealed with Gas, then I shot a group annealed with the AMP. The results from this test showed the AMP process works better but not conclusive to just one group each and one test session. The group shot from gas annealed cases measured in at .9?? And the group from the AMP annealing was a .5?? Also in this test I noticed the ES was 3 fps lower from the AMP annealed cases vs the gas annealed.
Each group was 5 shots from this test and more testing will be done soon to verify the purchase was money well spent or not.
 
Tagged for interest. Please follow up with results!

It seems like initial test shows the possibility of improvement vs. the two methods and I find that very interesting.

Will you keep a running total of ES and Group size between Gas vs. Induction?
 
James,
You should now take the same 5 cases you used the amp on and now use gas on them. Then do the same with the ones you used gas on and now use the amp.

If it crosses over you will know you have spent your money wisely :D
 
James,
You should now take the same 5 cases you used the amp on and now use gas on them. Then do the same with the ones you used gas on and now use the amp.

If it crosses over you will know you have spent your money wisely :D


That's a good idea, but there's a kink to it. I sold my gas Annealer a couple weeks back. So I'm now only down to what cases I annealed and set back with it before the AMP came in. Oh and there is another kink lol, I've already stuck them in the tumbler to be cleaned so no idea which is which even if I had my old Annealer back. But if I can run across one locally I will do just that and see if there really is a difference.
 
That's a good idea, but there's a kink to it. I sold my gas Annealer a couple weeks back. So I'm now only down to what cases I annealed and set back with it before the AMP came in. Oh and there is another kink lol, I've already stuck them in the tumbler to be cleaned so no idea which is which even if I had my old Annealer back. But if I can run across one locally I will do just that and see if there really is a difference.
I guess we will just never know!
 
The only way to tell if the AMP anneals any better or more consistently than any other properly used method would be to have the cases examined and tested by a metallurgist. There are way to many variables involved to attribute one grouping being better than another to just annealing.

All that said, if it works for you and you're happy with it more power to you.
 
The only way to tell if the AMP anneals any better or more consistently than any other properly used method would be to have the cases examined and tested by a metallurgist. There are way to many variables involved to attribute one grouping being better than another to just annealing.

All that said, if it works for you and you're happy with it more power to you.


I believe this has already been done by the guys who are producing and selling the AMP, it seems they have a lab where they can do these tests and have already performed them.

http://www.ampannealing.com/about-us
 
PM sent
That's a good idea, but there's a kink to it. I sold my gas Annealer a couple weeks back. So I'm now only down to what cases I annealed and set back with it before the AMP came in. Oh and there is another kink lol, I've already stuck them in the tumbler to be cleaned so no idea which is which even if I had my old Annealer back. But if I can run across one locally I will do just that and see if there really is a difference.
 
I don't place any faith in any manufactures in house test. Independent double blind testing is really the only acceptable testing method.
 
Someone (not me) said that even imperfect annealing is 100 times better than no annealing - and I fully agree.

I'm a big fan of annealing and I anneal both my plinking brass and my competition brass every time. However, if you read Bryan Litz's latest book, you will see that his very careful tests on the effects of annealing show that annealing has no effect on precision.

I am NOT happy to see that because I'm firmly in the "believer" group. Surely brass of the same hardness should help with consistent neck tension and surely consistent neck tension has an effect on precision, right? That makes so much sense to me that I strongly believe it to be true. But Mr Litz says otherwise and it's hard to argue with him. He's no dummy.

One thing I know for sure; testing ANYTHING by comparing a single pair of 5 round groups will prove nothing. And I question if anyone can show a scientific difference between gas and electric annealing by measuring group size even if they measure many groups.

As someone who has some formal training in metallurgy, including testing brass hardness in the lab, I have doubts if ordinary lab testing of the type normally used to evaluate the condition of work-hardened brass would be able to detect meaningful differences.

If there are differences in two cased both properly annealed, one with gas one with electricity, they must be tiny. And since Mr. Litz did not detect any difference between annealed and not annealed, I would say you might very well be wasting your time.

Full disclosure: I've wasted so much time in my rather long life that it's a family embarrassment. So don't let me stop you.
 
But Mr Litz says otherwise and it's hard to argue with him. He's no dummy.

About 3 or 4 years ago, Brian Litz published an article saying that bullets from light barrels, left the muzzle at an off angle of 10°, and wobbled to the target, so the BC was much lower that the same bullet shot from a heavy barrel.
I nearly spilled a mouth full of soda pop on my keyboard when I read that - it is impossible.

Once a bullet's axis is pointed away from the bore axis, there is no force on earth that will bring it back... plus, if were true, then ballistic program writers would put in separate listings of BC depending on the barrel diameter... they do not.
 
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This morning I loaded up and went to test if there were any differences between my brass that had been annealed by gas vs the new AMP Annealer. I shot 6 rounds on a steel plate at 500 yards to foul in the barrel and get a zero. My first group was shot with brass annealed with Gas, then I shot a group annealed with the AMP. The results from this test showed the AMP process works better but not conclusive to just one group each and one test session. The group shot from gas annealed cases measured in at .9?? And the group from the AMP annealing was a .5?? Also in this test I noticed the ES was 3 fps lower from the AMP annealed cases vs the gas annealed.
Each group was 5 shots from this test and more testing will be done soon to verify the purchase was money well spent or not.

Must be some pretty smart brass to know the difference between a flame and an induction coil when the temps are 700-750 degrees. LMAO
 
Must be some pretty smart brass to know the difference between a flame and an induction coil when the temps are 700-750 degrees. LMAO

First I will state my bias, I have unanswered questions regarding the induction method and even though it has the potential to anneal in a more even manner than the heat method, I am as of yet unconvinced that the induction machines available are achieving this.

Is it significant? I do not know.

Response to post quoted above: Because of the way the heat is presented to the brass, the flame being a single (or two single) point(s) applied externally and then spreading through the brass by conduction the brass will always be heated less evenly that would be achieved by the induction method.

The induction method uses electromagnetic waves that cause the brass to become hotter by exciting the molecules of the brass whereby each individual molecule would become hotter. This would heat the brass in a significantly more uniform manner and even though the inner molecules would be exposed to a slightly weaker electromagnetic field, the induction method has the potential (no pun intended of course) to cause the brass to become heated in a much more evenly distributed manner.

Now to my concern about the induction method as presently available.

Here is a quote from the website of a manufacturer of an induction method annealer.

"Thermal Protection
In common with any induction heater, with extended use, the output inductor will gradually heat up. Multiple fans are installed in our annealer to keep the circuitry and inductor cool. After 40 – 50 cases have been annealed, the top of the unit behind the pilot will start to feel warm to the touch. This is normal.
In the event that the output inductor should reach 190F/90C (inside the annealer), a thermal cut out will activate to protect the unit. If that occurs, leave the annealer turned on so the fans continue cooling. It will automatically reset after 30 minutes, once cooling is complete."

My question to the induction methodeers is this:

The output inductor (which has thermal mass) which is inside the annealer and would seem to need to be in immediate proximity to the case in order to function as intended is allowed to vary in temp from 70 deg F (ambient when you begin the annealing session) to 190 deg F (the point at which thermal protection cut off occurs). The annealing 'control' is a time and not a temperature function. How can the induced temperature of the brass not vary significantly when the temperature of the inductor is permitted to vary 120 deg F? If the ambient temperature of the 'annealing chamber' is 120 deg F hotter and the time for which the electromagnetic waves are applied does not change, simple physics (ambient heat of the inductor + electromagnetically induced heat) would indicate that the resulting temperature of the brass would be progressively higher for each successive piece of brass. The variation from piece to piece would be small but the variation from first piece to last piece of a 100 or 200 case batch could be quite large. How much higher? My proficiency in thermodynamics is not up to the task, perhaps someone else can take that on. Certainly more than that which could be achieved using Tempilaq which is advertised as +/- 1% or =?- 7.5 deg F for 750 deg F Tempilaq.

Perhaps an experiment would at least partially answer the question. Apply 760 degree Tempilaq to the cases and run cases though the induction annealer until the Tempilaq changes color or the thermal cutoff is reached. If none of them show this temperature was reached then it would seem not to be a problem.
 
First, you have to understand how induction heating works.

The induction heater contains a high powered oscillator operating at, say, 20 kHZ to 200 kHZ. Its output is an output voltage with high current capacity. This voltage source is connected to a coil commonly called the "work coil." the term "voltage source" must be explained, a voltage source by definition is a low impedance source of a fixed voltage with wide current capacity. When the brass case is inserted into the work coil, the case becomes the secondary of a transformer. By nature of the geometry of the case, this transformer has a "shorted secondary as the secondary is a tube . Some units use a work coil with the case inserted into it, others (like my Annie) use a ferrite core that the work coil is wound around. This core can be square or round, no significant difference. The core has a gap cut into it that the case is inserted into. When the heater is operating, the flux in the core is maximized in the gap due to the permeability difference between ferrite and air. Still, the work coil and the brass case make up a transformer with work coil primary and case secondary. The number of turns in the primary versus the single turn in the secondary (by nature of the "tube" being a single, shorted turn) transforms the voltage in the primary to a lesser voltage on the secondary by the ratio of pri to sec turns. My Annie has 4 turns in the primary so the voltage impressed on the secondary is 1/4 the primary. This turns ratio also increases the current in the secondary to 4 times the current in the primary. So, if the primary has an AC voltage of 100 Volts, the secondary voltage on the case will be 25 Volts. And, for a 1000 Watt unit, the primary can supply 10 Amps (10 Amps times 100 Volts equals 1000 Watts). This 10 amps in the primary is transformed into 40 Amps in the case secondary. The case has a finite resistance so the 40 Amps flowing in the neck of the case produces 1000 Watts (40 Amps times 25 Volts). The actual geometric split of the current in the case is complicated as the resistance of the neck (the hottest part) increases with temp while the case body stays cooler and has less resistance, but the farther you measure from the neck which is in the gap, the less current flows in the case due to spreading resistance from neck to body.
As the secondary is mostly a current source and the primary is driven by a voltage source, the increase in coil resistance makes less effect on secondary current. The internal work coil is cooled to keep it in one piece! The panel connector on my Annie is cooled by holes around it so the internal cooling air driven by a fan passes over it. Without cooling, the connector over-heats and melts the solder in the Litz wire termination which increases resistance even more and takes away power from the case. Cooling minimizes this problem. The AMP has the work coil inside the box so can directly cool it with fans.

See, nothing to it!
 
First, you have to understand how induction heating works.

The induction heater contains a high powered oscillator operating at, say, 20 kHZ to 200 kHZ. Its output is an output voltage with high current capacity. This voltage source is connected to a coil commonly called the "work coil." the term "voltage source" must be explained, a voltage source by definition is a low impedance source of a fixed voltage with wide current capacity. When the brass case is inserted into the work coil, the case becomes the secondary of a transformer. By nature of the geometry of the case, this transformer has a "shorted secondary as the secondary is a tube . Some units use a work coil with the case inserted into it, others (like my Annie) use a ferrite core that the work coil is wound around. This core can be square or round, no significant difference. The core has a gap cut into it that the case is inserted into. When the heater is operating, the flux in the core is maximized in the gap due to the permeability difference between ferrite and air. Still, the work coil and the brass case make up a transformer with work coil primary and case secondary. The number of turns in the primary versus the single turn in the secondary (by nature of the "tube" being a single, shorted turn) transforms the voltage in the primary to a lesser voltage on the secondary by the ratio of pri to sec turns. My Annie has 4 turns in the primary so the voltage impressed on the secondary is 1/4 the primary. This turns ratio also increases the current in the secondary to 4 times the current in the primary. So, if the primary has an AC voltage of 100 Volts, the secondary voltage on the case will be 25 Volts. And, for a 1000 Watt unit, the primary can supply 10 Amps (10 Amps times 100 Volts equals 1000 Watts). This 10 amps in the primary is transformed into 40 Amps in the case secondary. The case has a finite resistance so the 40 Amps flowing in the neck of the case produces 1000 Watts (40 Amps times 25 Volts). The actual geometric split of the current in the case is complicated as the resistance of the neck (the hottest part) increases with temp while the case body stays cooler and has less resistance, but the farther you measure from the neck which is in the gap, the less current flows in the case due to spreading resistance from neck to body.
As the secondary is mostly a current source and the primary is driven by a voltage source, the increase in coil resistance makes less effect on secondary current. The internal work coil is cooled to keep it in one piece! The panel connector on my Annie is cooled by holes around it so the internal cooling air driven by a fan passes over it. Without cooling, the connector over-heats and melts the solder in the Litz wire termination which increases resistance even more and takes away power from the case. Cooling minimizes this problem. The AMP has thework coil inside the box so can directly cool it with fans.

See, nothing to it!
Like was said before 750 degrees if it is the number Indution of flame wont matter . I do think induction is the better way .
Would I spend that much to anneal NO
Larry
 

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