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Garand 30-06 help needed.

Not really; compared to how many I have had to replace, this one still has many thousands of rounds left in its lifespan. You should have seen the ones that made it back from Columbia! :(
I have personally never seen an M1 bolt with that much wear on the top of the left bolt lug.

Danny
 
i have been using imr4064 but sure would like to use up my h4895 in my garands and not break /bend anything. is this ok GotR?

Oh i have not exactly been butchering the X ring trying to shoot one of these at 1K

what is the name of that fixture? i cant quite see what it does? hopefully OP josh does.
he is much smarter than I. thanks GoTr
IMR 4895 and 4064 are ideal for the Garand, but at $75 per lb (if you can find it), there are better options.

It is known as a an Armorer’s Bolt Disassembly Tool. Not expensive, but getting harder to find. Mine is about 50 years old.
It compresses the ejector plunger so that when you tap the button on the bottom, it drives out the extractor to release the extractor spring/pivot pin and the firing pin.
Better pics later.
 
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I have personally never seen an M1 bolt with that much wear on the top of the left bolt lug.

Danny
I will find one returned from Denmark, some of those were really bad.
I’ve seen thousands of Garands at Shows, the CMP North/South Stores, the aforementioned KY Posts, and those of Friends, and Fellow JCG Memorial Match opponents. They don’t have to be pretty to shoot well.
 
Also check out where to grease the bolt op rod and hammer in the action. Plasti lube used to be the grease to use in the Grande and M14.
 
Also check out where to grease the bolt op rod and hammer in the action. Plasti lube used to be the grease to use in the Grande and M14.
Excellent point, Sir!
Lubriplate was most common a while back, but there are so many really good lubricant greases available today, it is more important to regularly inspect/relube the vital contact points as Dkk37058 points out.
All that info is posted on the CMP Website.

 
Don’t use a slow burn powder
Check out the burn rates for safe Grande pressures if to slow it’ll bend the OP rod. It used to be said don’t use a powder slower than IMR 4895 .
4895 used to be the powder used by Uncle Sam for the Grande. Maybe some others will chime in on this.
This is an old wives tail.

Here, read this.

Ken Johnson
Shooters World Propellants
Prospector Training, LLC


I....have been meaning to write a book about this. From my earliest days of being a DCM shooter of M1 Garands on the weekends, to being mentored by old Marines, to being an AMU shooter, to working in Technical Services and Research and Development at St. Marks Powder.....to eventually owning and operating my own internal ballistics laboratory....I have heard of the "theory" of the bent-op rod in the M-1 Garand.

...in the early 2000's, I befriended OLD engineers from Rock Island, Winchester, CCI, and other government and industry locations. NONE of them could confirm "the theory". NONE of them had ever SEEN a bent op-rod. Despite all the parroting, the claims, the "assurances" from crusty old M-1 Garand shooters....even the oft quoted "This ammo is MADE for the M-1 Garand".....

So, being in the position of owning a SAAMI member laboratory, and having every means to run a thorough test....I did.

There are a LOT of nuances involved in ballistic testing. And honestly, if you REALLY want to challenge me on knowledge....bring your lunch. So, I'm not going to get into the "50,000 psi discussion". You quote that in an argument, and you clearly are an arm-chair Ballistician, without modern day knowledge. Study up.

Just a few Cliff notes, before I do the data-dump: I made a "blue pill" load, that approximated the current "Maximum Probable Sample Mean" for 30-06 Springfield SAAMI ammunition. This is the HIGHEST "production" pressure, as statistically suggested within SAAMI documentation for piezo transducer testing. That pressure (MPSM) is 63,800 psi. Note: Max Average Pressure (MAP) for 30-06 Springfield is listed at 60,000 psi Piezo...The intent of this portion of the exercise was to attempt to maximize PORT pressure, while keeping CHAMBER pressure within the realm of "safe limits". Surely, all would agree that IF chamber pressure were pushed FAR above "normal limits"....any damned fool could break a gun, in any number of places.

Back to the maximization of PORT pressures, just to drive the point home: The intent was to find ANY combination of projectile and propellant that would MAXIMIZE port pressure, while keeping inside "reasonably safe" SAAMI chamber pressures. Some would believe it would be "heavy bullet"....and some would believe it would be "slow powder". Well....I ran that experiment for days...turns out a little 130 grain bullet, with 70 (SEVENTY) grains of a fairly slow propellant DID maximize port pressure. Higher than any heavy bullet did....

A formal test barrel was fabricated by SATERN barrels, conforming to the min-spec dimensions of a 30-06 government test barrel chamber, bore cross-section, and port location from the muzzle. While not a "SAAMI" test barrel (but rather conforming to government drawings), it met the intent of the program. Using this test barrel, I created the "blue pill"....and tested ALL ammunition lots of both government and commercial 30-06 ammunition.

Surely some here will reference a group of gentlemen who DID instrument a true M-1 Garand with a piezo transducer TO THE GAS PORT CYLINDER of an M-1 Garand. And...they reported pressure results. Mmmmmyep. Good for them. I did that too. But I did not report those numbers, as there is NO standardized method or equipment to test/capture those numbers. Suffice it to say, that when taking into account PV=nRT, any VARIANCE IN VOLUME of the cylinder will drastically affect the recorded pressure output. Thus, the gas-port cylinder test is inherently flawed, when compared to standard industry methods. MY pressure output numbers utilized industry-standard methods, whereby the pressure is read DIRECTLY at the location of the port (as-per EPVAT modern day methodology), with no associated "free volume" to dampen the output results.

An M-1 Garand rifle was purchased from CMP, with both a "service" grade barrel, as well as a new Criterion barrel...several trigger groups, several op-rods...all with the intent to destroy this firearm by shooting the "blue pill" through it repeatedly.

Findings:

Folks have claimed (totally incorrectly) that heavy bullets....or slow powders....or SAAMI MAP pressures....will doom your M-1 Garand to certain destruction. Folks- I have passed my results to other SAAMI member laboratories, and major ammunition manufacturers. All of them have told me that they've never witnessed ANYONE ELSE, EVER test this system so exhaustively.

The "Blue Pill" load did NOT destroy any part of the M-1 Garand. I've fired in excess of 200 "Blue Pill" rounds through it (along with every other type of commercial and government ammunition), and there remains NO sign of fatigue, or of failure to feed/fire/extract. I have also fired hundreds of rounds of 200+ grain projectiles through this rifle. NO PROBLEM, if the load is kept to SAAMI pressures.

The M-1 Garand is a ROBUST firearm design, able to digest standard SAAMI modern-day ammunition, of any make, and any components, when loaded to SAAMI standard pressures.

I have long offered a bounty for a bent or broken op-rod. I NEED to examine one...but no-one has ever EVER claimed to have had one. The constraints: It must have bent or broken with a load that conforms to SAAMI chamber pressures. The op-rod must be of original non-altered condition (before it was bent). If a hand-load, I must be provided the reloading recipe.

Despite my better judgement, the attachment provides EVERYONE my raw data, proving the extent of the testing across the ocean of time, disparity of manufacturers, and methods of pressure generation. Everything herein is fired out of the pressure barrel, using modern day piezo electric transducers of industry standard, filtered low-pass Bessel active at 20kHz, the transducers and charge amps all calibrated with a dead-weight tested.

UPDATE #1
(From Ken)
Folks- PowderMonkey here again (Ken Johnson of Prospector Training, LLC). We found the attached results sheet containing more data than before. I attach it here, for historical perusal. Should anyone wish to use this information for commercial purposes, I ask (kindly) that they contribute to making me whole. I may be found on the internet, or in Crawfordville, FL.

Jeremy Cheek and I performed this testing at the laboratory. We utilized many of his M1 and M2 lots, dating all the way back to...1927! He freely donated this ammunition, so that others might be able to better understand the TRUTH of the M1 Garand, ammunition loaded and certified for the weapon (over many years), as well as modern day alternatives.
 
This is an old wives tail.

Here, read this.

Ken Johnson
Shooters World Propellants
Prospector Training, LLC


I....have been meaning to write a book about this. From my earliest days of being a DCM shooter of M1 Garands on the weekends, to being mentored by old Marines, to being an AMU shooter, to working in Technical Services and Research and Development at St. Marks Powder.....to eventually owning and operating my own internal ballistics laboratory....I have heard of the "theory" of the bent-op rod in the M-1 Garand.

...in the early 2000's, I befriended OLD engineers from Rock Island, Winchester, CCI, and other government and industry locations. NONE of them could confirm "the theory". NONE of them had ever SEEN a bent op-rod. Despite all the parroting, the claims, the "assurances" from crusty old M-1 Garand shooters....even the oft quoted "This ammo is MADE for the M-1 Garand".....

So, being in the position of owning a SAAMI member laboratory, and having every means to run a thorough test....I did.

There are a LOT of nuances involved in ballistic testing. And honestly, if you REALLY want to challenge me on knowledge....bring your lunch. So, I'm not going to get into the "50,000 psi discussion". You quote that in an argument, and you clearly are an arm-chair Ballistician, without modern day knowledge. Study up.

Just a few Cliff notes, before I do the data-dump: I made a "blue pill" load, that approximated the current "Maximum Probable Sample Mean" for 30-06 Springfield SAAMI ammunition. This is the HIGHEST "production" pressure, as statistically suggested within SAAMI documentation for piezo transducer testing. That pressure (MPSM) is 63,800 psi. Note: Max Average Pressure (MAP) for 30-06 Springfield is listed at 60,000 psi Piezo...The intent of this portion of the exercise was to attempt to maximize PORT pressure, while keeping CHAMBER pressure within the realm of "safe limits". Surely, all would agree that IF chamber pressure were pushed FAR above "normal limits"....any damned fool could break a gun, in any number of places.

Back to the maximization of PORT pressures, just to drive the point home: The intent was to find ANY combination of projectile and propellant that would MAXIMIZE port pressure, while keeping inside "reasonably safe" SAAMI chamber pressures. Some would believe it would be "heavy bullet"....and some would believe it would be "slow powder". Well....I ran that experiment for days...turns out a little 130 grain bullet, with 70 (SEVENTY) grains of a fairly slow propellant DID maximize port pressure. Higher than any heavy bullet did....

A formal test barrel was fabricated by SATERN barrels, conforming to the min-spec dimensions of a 30-06 government test barrel chamber, bore cross-section, and port location from the muzzle. While not a "SAAMI" test barrel (but rather conforming to government drawings), it met the intent of the program. Using this test barrel, I created the "blue pill"....and tested ALL ammunition lots of both government and commercial 30-06 ammunition.

Surely some here will reference a group of gentlemen who DID instrument a true M-1 Garand with a piezo transducer TO THE GAS PORT CYLINDER of an M-1 Garand. And...they reported pressure results. Mmmmmyep. Good for them. I did that too. But I did not report those numbers, as there is NO standardized method or equipment to test/capture those numbers. Suffice it to say, that when taking into account PV=nRT, any VARIANCE IN VOLUME of the cylinder will drastically affect the recorded pressure output. Thus, the gas-port cylinder test is inherently flawed, when compared to standard industry methods. MY pressure output numbers utilized industry-standard methods, whereby the pressure is read DIRECTLY at the location of the port (as-per EPVAT modern day methodology), with no associated "free volume" to dampen the output results.

An M-1 Garand rifle was purchased from CMP, with both a "service" grade barrel, as well as a new Criterion barrel...several trigger groups, several op-rods...all with the intent to destroy this firearm by shooting the "blue pill" through it repeatedly.

Findings:

Folks have claimed (totally incorrectly) that heavy bullets....or slow powders....or SAAMI MAP pressures....will doom your M-1 Garand to certain destruction. Folks- I have passed my results to other SAAMI member laboratories, and major ammunition manufacturers. All of them have told me that they've never witnessed ANYONE ELSE, EVER test this system so exhaustively.

The "Blue Pill" load did NOT destroy any part of the M-1 Garand. I've fired in excess of 200 "Blue Pill" rounds through it (along with every other type of commercial and government ammunition), and there remains NO sign of fatigue, or of failure to feed/fire/extract. I have also fired hundreds of rounds of 200+ grain projectiles through this rifle. NO PROBLEM, if the load is kept to SAAMI pressures.

The M-1 Garand is a ROBUST firearm design, able to digest standard SAAMI modern-day ammunition, of any make, and any components, when loaded to SAAMI standard pressures.

I have long offered a bounty for a bent or broken op-rod. I NEED to examine one...but no-one has ever EVER claimed to have had one. The constraints: It must have bent or broken with a load that conforms to SAAMI chamber pressures. The op-rod must be of original non-altered condition (before it was bent). If a hand-load, I must be provided the reloading recipe.

Despite my better judgement, the attachment provides EVERYONE my raw data, proving the extent of the testing across the ocean of time, disparity of manufacturers, and methods of pressure generation. Everything herein is fired out of the pressure barrel, using modern day piezo electric transducers of industry standard, filtered low-pass Bessel active at 20kHz, the transducers and charge amps all calibrated with a dead-weight tested.

UPDATE #1
(From Ken)
Folks- PowderMonkey here again (Ken Johnson of Prospector Training, LLC). We found the attached results sheet containing more data than before. I attach it here, for historical perusal. Should anyone wish to use this information for commercial purposes, I ask (kindly) that they contribute to making me whole. I may be found on the internet, or in Crawfordville, FL.

Jeremy Cheek and I performed this testing at the laboratory. We utilized many of his M1 and M2 lots, dating all the way back to...1927! He freely donated this ammunition, so that others might be able to better understand the TRUTH of the M1 Garand, ammunition loaded and certified for the weapon (over many years), as well as modern day alternatives.
Thanks for that information. One thing that has been posted a lot is the idea that somehow Garands must be loaded to lower chamber pressure levels. I never believed any of that because John Garand did some famous testing where he grossly overloaded cartridges and it took quite a lot of firing to start cracking bolt lugs, then he continued to fire it to complete bolt lug failure. I am paraphrasing here, roughly. In any case, an M1 is basically a bolt action rifle, a gas operated one.

Danny
 
This is an old wives tail.

Here, read this.

Ken Johnson
Shooters World Propellants
Prospector Training, LLC


I....have been meaning to write a book about this. From my earliest days of being a DCM shooter of M1 Garands on the weekends, to being mentored by old Marines, to being an AMU shooter, to working in Technical Services and Research and Development at St. Marks Powder.....to eventually owning and operating my own internal ballistics laboratory....I have heard of the "theory" of the bent-op rod in the M-1 Garand.

...in the early 2000's, I befriended OLD engineers from Rock Island, Winchester, CCI, and other government and industry locations. NONE of them could confirm "the theory". NONE of them had ever SEEN a bent op-rod. Despite all the parroting, the claims, the "assurances" from crusty old M-1 Garand shooters....even the oft quoted "This ammo is MADE for the M-1 Garand".....

So, being in the position of owning a SAAMI member laboratory, and having every means to run a thorough test....I did.

There are a LOT of nuances involved in ballistic testing. And honestly, if you REALLY want to challenge me on knowledge....bring your lunch. So, I'm not going to get into the "50,000 psi discussion". You quote that in an argument, and you clearly are an arm-chair Ballistician, without modern day knowledge. Study up.

Just a few Cliff notes, before I do the data-dump: I made a "blue pill" load, that approximated the current "Maximum Probable Sample Mean" for 30-06 Springfield SAAMI ammunition. This is the HIGHEST "production" pressure, as statistically suggested within SAAMI documentation for piezo transducer testing. That pressure (MPSM) is 63,800 psi. Note: Max Average Pressure (MAP) for 30-06 Springfield is listed at 60,000 psi Piezo...The intent of this portion of the exercise was to attempt to maximize PORT pressure, while keeping CHAMBER pressure within the realm of "safe limits". Surely, all would agree that IF chamber pressure were pushed FAR above "normal limits"....any damned fool could break a gun, in any number of places.

Back to the maximization of PORT pressures, just to drive the point home: The intent was to find ANY combination of projectile and propellant that would MAXIMIZE port pressure, while keeping inside "reasonably safe" SAAMI chamber pressures. Some would believe it would be "heavy bullet"....and some would believe it would be "slow powder". Well....I ran that experiment for days...turns out a little 130 grain bullet, with 70 (SEVENTY) grains of a fairly slow propellant DID maximize port pressure. Higher than any heavy bullet did....

A formal test barrel was fabricated by SATERN barrels, conforming to the min-spec dimensions of a 30-06 government test barrel chamber, bore cross-section, and port location from the muzzle. While not a "SAAMI" test barrel (but rather conforming to government drawings), it met the intent of the program. Using this test barrel, I created the "blue pill"....and tested ALL ammunition lots of both government and commercial 30-06 ammunition.

Surely some here will reference a group of gentlemen who DID instrument a true M-1 Garand with a piezo transducer TO THE GAS PORT CYLINDER of an M-1 Garand. And...they reported pressure results. Mmmmmyep. Good for them. I did that too. But I did not report those numbers, as there is NO standardized method or equipment to test/capture those numbers. Suffice it to say, that when taking into account PV=nRT, any VARIANCE IN VOLUME of the cylinder will drastically affect the recorded pressure output. Thus, the gas-port cylinder test is inherently flawed, when compared to standard industry methods. MY pressure output numbers utilized industry-standard methods, whereby the pressure is read DIRECTLY at the location of the port (as-per EPVAT modern day methodology), with no associated "free volume" to dampen the output results.

An M-1 Garand rifle was purchased from CMP, with both a "service" grade barrel, as well as a new Criterion barrel...several trigger groups, several op-rods...all with the intent to destroy this firearm by shooting the "blue pill" through it repeatedly.

Findings:

Folks have claimed (totally incorrectly) that heavy bullets....or slow powders....or SAAMI MAP pressures....will doom your M-1 Garand to certain destruction. Folks- I have passed my results to other SAAMI member laboratories, and major ammunition manufacturers. All of them have told me that they've never witnessed ANYONE ELSE, EVER test this system so exhaustively.

The "Blue Pill" load did NOT destroy any part of the M-1 Garand. I've fired in excess of 200 "Blue Pill" rounds through it (along with every other type of commercial and government ammunition), and there remains NO sign of fatigue, or of failure to feed/fire/extract. I have also fired hundreds of rounds of 200+ grain projectiles through this rifle. NO PROBLEM, if the load is kept to SAAMI pressures.

The M-1 Garand is a ROBUST firearm design, able to digest standard SAAMI modern-day ammunition, of any make, and any components, when loaded to SAAMI standard pressures.

I have long offered a bounty for a bent or broken op-rod. I NEED to examine one...but no-one has ever EVER claimed to have had one. The constraints: It must have bent or broken with a load that conforms to SAAMI chamber pressures. The op-rod must be of original non-altered condition (before it was bent). If a hand-load, I must be provided the reloading recipe.

Despite my better judgement, the attachment provides EVERYONE my raw data, proving the extent of the testing across the ocean of time, disparity of manufacturers, and methods of pressure generation. Everything herein is fired out of the pressure barrel, using modern day piezo electric transducers of industry standard, filtered low-pass Bessel active at 20kHz, the transducers and charge amps all calibrated with a dead-weight tested.

UPDATE #1
(From Ken)
Folks- PowderMonkey here again (Ken Johnson of Prospector Training, LLC). We found the attached results sheet containing more data than before. I attach it here, for historical perusal. Should anyone wish to use this information for commercial purposes, I ask (kindly) that they contribute to making me whole. I may be found on the internet, or in Crawfordville, FL.

Jeremy Cheek and I performed this testing at the laboratory. We utilized many of his M1 and M2 lots, dating all the way back to...1927! He freely donated this ammunition, so that others might be able to better understand the TRUTH of the M1 Garand, ammunition loaded and certified for the weapon (over many years), as well as modern day alternatives.
Question: Any recent tests done on an M1 which still has an un-cut op-rod?
Tim
 
Excellent input, and testing I was unaware of.
I err on the side of moderation strictly to preserve my Collection and likewise the condition they will need to remain in, as parts begin to become rarer throughout this Century and beyond.
Certainly no need to firewall any ammunition since I only shoot out to 600 yds for plinking steel these days. All of my Target work is 100 and 200 yds.
If I get the opportunity to shoot at the CMP/Talladega Marksmanship Park where their electronic scoring systems give immediate feedback without me having to pull Pit Duty, I will likely be using the same Handload data/process I have used to win matches thus far.
Likewise, I think Ken’s research would be of significant interest to my fellow CMP’rs.
 
Not unless it’s Match Grade Chamber.
I used to have issues with my garands feeding brass previously fired in other rifles. I used once fired military headstamp primarily. Now I use a small base die set from RCBS the first and occasionally the second time I reload a particular batch of brass. After that a standard set of dies suffices typically. Don't want jams while trying to keep the Axis powers at bay!
 
I used to have issues with my garands feeding brass previously fired in other rifles. I used once fired military headstamp primarily. Now I use a small base die set from RCBS the first and occasionally the second time I reload a particular batch of brass. After that a standard set of dies suffices typically. Don't want jams while trying to keep the Axis powers at bay!
Small base dies are only needed on a case by case basis. I have only ever needed them once in my history of loading for M1, M14 and AR type rifles going back to the 80s.

Danny
 
Just a precautionary step I take as there was and I suppose still is a lot of 06 brass that has found its way through some very bad chambers!
 
Just a precautionary step I take as there was and I suppose still is a lot of 06 brass that has found its way through some very bad chambers!
Excellent point, Sir. Most of my brass is sourced from the domestic USGI non-corrosive surplus ammunition, Greek HXP, some later lots of AYR (Norway), and PS (South Korea). I still have some AMA (Danish) ammo, but it is berdan primed, and I’m not desperate enough to Handload them as of yet. Great ammo, though.
I am down to a single 1,320 round case of the HXP; an unusual way to package ammunition, and a logistically difficult process to move them, but they were cheap back in the late 80’s, early 90’s at $ .30 per round.
IMG_3550.jpeg
USGI Lake City, WRA, WCC, FA, RA, SL headstamped ammo (chosen in years after they became NC primed, have all gone downrange over my years of shooting at the now “cheap” rate of about $ .25-$ .30 per round. Think there are only a few thousand rounds of the USGI surplus still remaining in my stash.
The Creedmoor ammunition is available and I will say it leaves absolutely zero room for “excuses” if you still can’t score well;).
PPU is another somewhat recent offering, and again, very good. I like the Federal “Garand” load, but don’t see it stocked much anymore.
FullSizeRender.jpeg

FullSizeRender.jpeg
 
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View attachment 1636366
View attachment 1636367

View attachment 1636368

View attachment 1636369
You can take a measurement on the center of the shoulder of a case fired in your Garand and then compare with that case sized in your die. As long as you are bumped .002-.003 shorter than the fired case you will be fine. Garands are not typically at Match Grade tolerances even when “unissued” as some were found to be when the 100s of thousands were returned from Greece, Denmark, Philippines, etc.
If, on the other hand, it has been refurbished or purpose built with say, a Criterion, Wilson or Barnett (and now Faxon) barrel, and finish reamed for minimal headspace, closer measurements are required.
I have built up more than dozen Garands from stripped CMP receivers, and refurbished likely 75 Garands for VFW, Am. Legion, and Disabled Veteran’s Posts here in KY over the last 18 years since becoming a Volunteer Armorer for CMP.
Another simple way to check your chamber/headspace to assure it is not out of spec, regardless of what condition it is in, is to use No Go, Field, and Go gages after disassembling bolt as illustrated above.
I applaud you for the consideration of maintaining the safe operation of these historic Rifles for posterity, as we are merely the Stewards of them moving forward in History.
GotRDid, one of these days I wish you would start a thread on Garand rebarrel to 6.5 calibers. I bet you have some real good ideas on this subject.
 
You could go “All In” with one of these, if you can find one.;)
 
Case gauges and chamber plunk test work well for not oversizing once fired brass fired in another firearm .I really don't know how else you can do it?

I have a late Springfield barrel that's an awesome shooter and probably the holy Grail of m1 Garand barrels an LMR barrel on my other one! Woohoo fun fun
 
Take .010 off the shell holder
You care to tell of your method.
I'm assuming your using shims on top of dies?
Then just sizing in increments till a batch of say 3-4 fits in chamber or a gauge? Idk just curious of what you are saying thanks
Not sure what your calling guffy also.thx
 
You care to tell of your method.
I'm assuming your using shims on top of dies?
Then just sizing in increments till a batch of say 3-4 fits in chamber or a gauge? Idk just curious of what you are saying thanks
Guffy gauges was a reference to F.guffy who always referenced feeler gauge.
Now if you haven't had the pleasure of reading his posts, you've been blessed.
His 55 gallon drum of scrap yard 06' brass, feeler gauges, datum lines and a lathe he carry under his arm are a thing of legend.
Any how if your having issues getting you shoulders to bump to desired measurement, take .010" off top of shell holder, this gains you that much more to push shoulders back. Use your feeler/Guffy gauges I "start with .010" between top of shell holder & bottom of dies measure bump and adjust feeler gauge and die down until achieving desired bump.
Hope this helps to clear up any confusion to my prior post.
 
Guffy gauges was a reference to F.guffy who always referenced feeler gauge.
Now if you haven't had the pleasure of reading his posts, you've been blessed.
His 55 gallon drum of scrap yard 06' brass, feeler gauges, datum lines and a lathe he carry under his arm are a thing of legend.
Any how if your having issues getting you shoulders to bump to desired measurement, take .010" off top of shell holder, this gains you that much more to push shoulders back. Use your feeler/Guffy gauges I "start with .010" between top of shell holder & bottom of dies measure bump and adjust feeler gauge and die down until achieving desired bump.
Hope this helps to clear up any confusion to my prior post.
Thanks.about what I figured
Just thought I'd ask to make sure. lol
Thanks

Luckily I haven't ran into needing to do this or buy a small base die yet
 
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