Gain Twist Barrel Uppers for Service Rifle ?

[GSS]

I had contacted Joe Carlos a year or so ago asking about his gain twist barrels or 20" AR 15 Service rifles. I wasn't interested in shooting 90's cuz I only shoot out to 600 yards.

When I asked him hoe they do if one were to stick with 80's at 600 he pretty much said don't bother if you are not going to use 90's, even if only shooting 600 max.

I was grateful for his honesty and have been sticking with 1-7 twist, Bartliens, Kreigers and Wilsons from White Oak.

Would be interested to hear from anyone using gain twist on 20" AR Service Rifles with 80's or 90's at 600 or 1000 as this is not common configurations.

For anyone unfamiliar with Joe here is just one of his great You Tube Videos.

Some people feel he is selling snake oil.
I haven't bought in yet but I like to see people that think outside the box and push new technologies ( to a point )

I searched the archives Titles here and got 26 Threads but most are a bit dated and none are Service rifle specific.

 

[Delfuego]

Joe makes great guns!

 

[Brady W]

Well I know I already answered this in another thread, but since it is thread specific I will answer again. There's going to be quite a bit because I am going to add a good quote from the Bartlein site.

Everything I run in competition is a gain twist. I have four currently, soon to be five. Three of them are Service rifle uppers.

My SR-1 and SR-2 (Service Rifle 1 and 2) are 1-8.0 to 1-7.7, 5R, with Wylde chambers. SR-1 I have shot two seasons on, currently running around 4,000 rounds. I expect to get 6-8k, hoping for 8+ but we shall see.

I have had very good luck with these, especially in 2018. I put a lot more rounds down range in '18. My first 4x600 match I shot a couple of personal bests, one of which was a 200-10x, and had a two day aggregate of 1572-58x. At the same range a few weeks later I missed HM by one point, shooting a 1575-60x. At Perry I shot 53rd in P100, and 99th in NTI. In 2017, my partner and I shot 19th in the Hearst Doubles match, I was using the same rifle and load.

I was running 80 SMKs with 24.5gr of Varget in LC Brass. Sometimes it was new virgin brass.

At the end of last season I switched to one of the Joe Carlos gains. There are four instances I can find right away where these have won good matches. Col. Denise Loring won High Woman in NTI a few years ago, Tom Helak went distinguished and won the WY Service Mid Range three years in a row, Brian Murphy in Maine won State Service Rifle, and Greg Krebaum won High Civilian at Perry in 16. All of them are running Joe Carlos style gain twists, typically with the Berger 90s.

The state Mid Range last year I shot a 1576-69x, won Master class, and earned my HM in Mid Range Prone. Missed service rifle champ by a point. At that match I was running a Joe Carlos, 13.6 to 6.2 gain twist, 80.5 Bergers, 24.5gr Varget, weight sorted brass, and with a Leupold FX2 I had made up in the custom shop. Wind still got me a couple more times than I would have liked.

Look, if you're on the fence about a gain twist, I will tell you that the "radical" gains are expensive. A 1.0 gain or less is only $40 extra. Anything over that is $160 extra and carries no warranty at Bartlein. I will also tell you that they work.

1. You're starting the bullet slower, so there's less pressure at the chamber end. Then you spin them up so they are stable.
2. A gain twist is always cutting a fresh edge on the jacket so you constantly have positive contact on the driving side of the land.
3. A gain twist gives you an edge. In perfect conditions, between a straight and a gain, there's little to no difference. But, when the conditions get crappy, the gain twists will perform just better enough to give you that lead.

It's okay if you don't believe me - a 5 time Bench Rest world record holder I know says the same thing. All gain twists, although he only runs a .100 to .200 gain.

Anyway, that's what I got.

TL;DR: Joe Carlos stuff works. I'm running .300 gains and they work.

Good luck! Brady

ETA: I should note that the radical gains tend to have a shorter barrel life. Not sure how much more but I would guess 25% reduction. But if you're winning...

 

[VA_XTC_Shooter]

You're getting 6K plus rounds out of your SR barrel? Do you attribute that to the gain twist or the Bartlein barrel?

 

[Brady W]

You're getting 6K plus rounds out of your SR barrel? Do you attribute that to the gain twist or the Bartlein barrel?

I think it's the steel quality, as well as the manufacturing process.

The jury is still out, I'm running this one til it pukes. I have been closely monitoring the gas port erosion and the throat. Borescoping it looks to me like a gun that only has half the rounds on it that it does.

Just a note, at the Bartlein shop they have a .308 accuracy test blank that has over 14,000 rounds on it that was still shooting .5 moa in a test chamber. Doesn't have any throat left to speak of tho...

 

[GSS]

Excellent Info Brady, Thank You

That explains the pricing I got from Joe Carlos back when I was contacting him.

I plan on sticking with 80 - 82gr at 600 so think I'll try one of the 1.0 gain barrels ( 1/8 to 1/7 ) should I go thru you for pricing / purchase?

Do you guys sell ready to install for AR's or would I have you send a blank to a shop of my choice for finishing?

I have a 1x7 5R Bartlein from Keystone Accuracy on what was my #1 upper last season and it shoots very well stays fairly carbon and copper free and cleans up very well.


Thanks again,
George

 

[Brady W]

That's awesome George. I love the 5Rs for how easily they clean, and the quality is so good that the fouling and copper problems are practically non-existent. Four patches, two wet, two dry, and sometimes I'm done.

If you want to give me a call in the shop, feel free, and I'll give you the low-down.

Brady