• This Forum is for adults 18 years of age or over. By continuing to use this Forum you are confirming that you are 18 or older. No content shall be viewed by any person under 18 in California.

Full Length Sizing Inconsistency - Cause?

A few years ago, I purchased a bag of once-fired Black Hills match .308 brass. Should have bought new, I know, but I didn't know any better then. It was nicely cleaned, but not deprimed. Recently, I decided to size it and use it. Through testing, I determined that an RCBS regular full length sizing die with a Redding Competition Shell Holder +.002 would be correct for the chamber I'll be using. I plan to use a Lee collet die on the next loadings. Anyhow, I just sized 50 using Imperial sizing wax. Four out of the fifty would not enter the die more than about half way. They went "SCRONCH" and would have obviously stuck if I had forced the issue any. Didn't matter how much Imperial wax was applied. I carefully measured necks, shoulders, mid-body and web and compared with cases that ultimately sized just fine. I frankly don't see a dimensional problem. I'm wondering if the brass in those cases is somehow significantly harder than the others. I have no way to measure that. Any ideas what caused this?
 
Did you apply wax to the inside of the necks?

Thats the only thing i can think of other than the cases needing to get annealed
 
I have had similar problems with 22-250 brass in a lee die and 45-70 brass in a RCBS die.
Both times it was Hornady brass. I figured it was just hard brass when I sized federal and winchester brass in the same dies with no trouble.
 
I've had some folks on another forum recommend a more slippery lube than Imperial. I will try that. Thinking of trying Froglube for the heck of it. Anyone else using that?
 
My guess is that these cases were fired in rifle with a over size chamber such as an auto creating excessive head space in the case. If you have the means, check the head space of a fired case with a case gage. My guess is that it will be protruding excessively above the upper step of the gage indicating excessive head space.
 
K22 said:
My guess is that these cases were fired in rifle with a over size chamber such as an auto creating excessive head space in the case. If you have the means, check the head space of a fired case with a case gage. My guess is that it will be protruding excessively above the upper step of the gage indicating excessive head space.

If the OPs .308 cases would only enter halfway into the resizing die "HOW" would "excessive headspace" stop the case from entering the die further??????

Or do you think his .308 cases were fired in a 30-06.............. :o

762nato3006.jpg
 
I just did about 125 federal blue box(cheapy hunting ammo) but they are hot.I had at least 15 cases just like that.I would try the old rcbs lube with the original formula,it makes it much easier.It was a remmy with a factory chamber.I probably should of annealed them first.
 
bigedp51 said:
K22 said:
My guess is that these cases were fired in rifle with a over size chamber such as an auto creating excessive head space in the case. If you have the means, check the head space of a fired case with a case gage. My guess is that it will be protruding excessively above the upper step of the gage indicating excessive head space.

If the OPs .308 cases would only enter halfway into the resizing die "HOW" would "excessive headspace" stop the case from entering the die further??????

Or do you think his .308 cases were fired in a 30-06.............. :o

762nato3006.jpg
Huh!!! talk about me Mr. GRRRRRRRump!! hahaha!!!! take a pill Big Ed LOL!!!!
Wayne.
 
bozo699 said:
Huh!!! talk about me Mr. GRRRRRRRump!! hahaha!!!! take a pill Big Ed LOL!!!!
Wayne.

Even if the cases were fired in a severely over gassed M1A the shoulder wouldn't move that far forward.

"YOU" could have at least told the OP how to properly lube his cases, bolt thrust isn't an issue with resizing dies. ::)

P.S. I'm not GRRRRRRRumpy, but my wife may have over dried my underwear, and the Precision Mic below belongs to me. ;)

RCBSPM.jpg
 
bigedp51 said:
K22 said:
My guess is that these cases were fired in rifle with a over size chamber such as an auto creating excessive head space in the case. If you have the means, check the head space of a fired case with a case gage. My guess is that it will be protruding excessively above the upper step of the gage indicating excessive head space.

If the OPs .308 cases would only enter halfway into the resizing die "HOW" would "excessive headspace" stop the case from entering the die further??????

Or do you think his .308 cases were fired in a 30-06.............. :o

762nato3006.jpg

Good question - a friend of mine had one of those breech loading rifles. After firing a new cases one time he had trouble resizing the cases as you described. I checked the cases in a Wilson Case Gage and the case showed considerable length change from the shoulder to the case head. The case was protruding a considerable amount above the upper step. Don't recall the exact measurement but it was quite obvious that there was excessive case head space compared to the original size of the unfired cases. The caliber was a 243 and I think the rifle was a Handi- rifle.

This was an observation I made and I shouldn't have suggested that it may be your problem however I wanted to share this observation with you in an effort to help since at least the conditions seem similar.
 
Guessing you have some severe expansion in the web area , the one area the die will not resize . Some of the cases obviously are OK . Are any of the primer pockets loose ? If you're seating primers with your press , you wouldn't notice this .
 
vtmarmot said:
I've had some folks on another forum recommend a more slippery lube than Imperial. I will try that. Thinking of trying Froglube for the heck of it. Anyone else using that?

vtmarmot, Froglube is the "in thing" to lube the bolt carrier group on a AR15 rifle and is not designed as a resizing lubricant. If your not a Navy Seal and swimming in salt water with your reloading dies I wouldn't waste your money.

frog-lube_zps9da9d2c5.jpg


vtmarmot said:
Four out of the fifty would not enter the die more than about half way. They went "SCRONCH" and would have obviously stuck if I had forced the issue any. Didn't matter how much Imperial wax was applied. I carefully measured necks, shoulders, mid-body and web and compared with cases that ultimately sized just fine. I frankly don't see a dimensional problem. I'm wondering if the brass in those cases is somehow significantly harder than the others. I have no way to measure that. Any ideas what caused this?

Note, if the LC brass was fired in a M240 machine gun the cases may have expanded more than normal due to the machine guns larger chamber. People using this oversize LC brass will sometimes use a small base die to bring these long fat cases back to normal size without any sizing problems. ("NO SCRONCH" when sizing)

Also note that LC military brass is harder in the base web area than commercial civilian brass and is harder to resize.

You say the external case dimensions are good so are these cases going "SCRONCH" when the expander button enters the neck in your die? (are you lubing the inside of the necks)
 
Those cases were fired in a rifle with an over-size chamber. Either run them through a small base or ring sizer or, better yet, just toss them.

Even in my benchrest rifles, with chambers cut with the exact same reamer, I keep the cases for each rifle separate and each rifle has its own set of "bump" shims.

FWIW, Greg J.
 
The only dimension I didn't check on the sticky cases was headspace, which I will check soon. They were not larger in the web area. It couldn't be that I didn't lube the inside of the necks as the necks are oversize from firing and the expander ball passes through freely on the way down. The outside diameter of the necks on the unsized brass is not too large, and I did lube the outside of the necks. However, I don't think that part is ever getting to the neck of the die. I think it is either harder brass, or there is a bulge in an area of the body that I didn't measure. I will measure at more points along the case, like every 1/4 inch, and see what gives. I will also try slicker lube, but give Froglube a pass.
 
vtmarmot

The military M16/A4 rifle has a larger diameter chamber and longer headspace than commercial .223 rifles, and the M240 has an even bigger chamber.

I just finished prepping three five gallon buckets of once fired .223/5.56 brass and some of them went "SCRONCH" during the sizing operation and my cases lived through it.

556and223chambers_zps87d293d3.gif


The same applies to the .308/7.62

m14chamber.jpg


Your using a (small) commercial .308 sizing die on a case fired in a (large) military chamber and sometimes they go "SCRONCH" when you size them. Look at the two columns on the right and the size differences.

183911.jpg


Question, has your .308 dies been sitting for a long time and need polished due to internal surface corrosion "SCRONCH" inside the die. Or could these tight cases have dirt/grit embedded on the outside of the cases. Polishing with stainless steel media will remove any surface contamination from your cases and make them easy to resize. (I have rifles that throw my brass away and they all end up on the ground)
 
Agreed, but I've learned a lot. I expect that the ones that appear decent will be relegated to hunting use and the rest tossed. If they won't shoot, they'll all be tossed. It's threads like this that remind me that no matter how much I read, try and know, there's always a lot more to be absorbed. What seemed like a good idea several years ago seems like a bad idea now, but I've already invested some money going in the wrong direction, and might as well see if I can turn it around.
 
vtmarmot

Its all a learning process, when you hear "SCRONCH" and then rip the rim off the case and have to buy a stuck case remover it becomes even clearer.

I would advise you to Google "SCRONCH" and look at the urban dictionary meaning. You might want to change it to "SCRUNCH" and leave the head cheese out of your postings. :o

smilingpig.jpg
 
Ok, I accept that, by the urban dictionary, scronch is an unpleasant substance found in an unmentionable place. In traditional Yankee usage, it means spirit or spunk, as in "he had a lot of scronch." I will defend it as a perfectly acceptable use of onomatopoeia, a neologism if you will, with me (or my die) as the inventor. Anyhow, since I've managed to perplex the best current minds in shooting today, I will announce that I've solved my own mystery. This is a weird one. I have been disinterested in this project for a couple of weeks while recuperating from a second new hip in 2 months. Today, I felt energetic enough to tackle it again. I measured the problem cases at all points of the body and neck, and for headspace, and compared them with 12 unsized cases from the same batch. Dimensionally, there was no unusual difference. The 12 test cases sized just fine, as did the next 35 I did. Then I looked at the four problem cases in really good light. I could see lengthwise shiny lines all around the body about 1/8 inch apart. I rotated them through my fingers and could feel slight ridges. Evidently these were fired in a chamber that had chatter marks from the reamer. I went through the next fifty unsized cases feeling for the flats, and found another 6 or so. All those refused to size. I wish to stress that this was not detectable with calipers, as apparently they settled on the flats. I will throw all those cases away as I think trying other lubricants is pointless. I did learn a lot from your comments, so thanks!
 
Lengthwise, 1/8" apart on the body.........I could be ooooober wrong here, but sounds mysteriously like they "could have" been fired in an HK-91 or Cetma chamber. I believe most of their chambers are generous, as well.
 

Upgrades & Donations

This Forum's expenses are primarily paid by member contributions. You can upgrade your Forum membership in seconds. Gold and Silver members get unlimited FREE classifieds for one year. Gold members can upload custom avatars.


Click Upgrade Membership Button ABOVE to get Gold or Silver Status.

You can also donate any amount, large or small, with the button below. Include your Forum Name in the PayPal Notes field.


To DONATE by CHECK, or make a recurring donation, CLICK HERE to learn how.

Forum statistics

Threads
165,804
Messages
2,203,630
Members
79,130
Latest member
Jsawyer09
Back
Top