• This Forum is for adults 18 years of age or over. By continuing to use this Forum you are confirming that you are 18 or older. No content shall be viewed by any person under 18 in California.

FTR Starting point questions

Looking to start shooting F-Class in FTR. I am a newbie to FClass and have some questions.

-223 vs 308. I would assume 308 is the way to go, but does the recoil comparison make it "easier" to shoot 223 more accurately? The wind drift on 223 seems like it can be extreme, especially at the 1000 yd range. I plan to start mainly shooting 600 MR events, but would like to be able to shoot 1000yds events.
-Looking at the Savage FTR rifle for starters, the cheek piece looks terrible though.
-Anyone use the Tier One bipod? Opinions on it? I assume its allowed in FTR class.
-Can you add weight to your rifle to get it close to the 18 lb limit? I know bipod, etc counts towards the total, but can i simply "stick" weights on?
-Golden Eagle looks like good scope. Anyone using the Athlon Ares ETR UHD 15-60x56?

Thanks in advance
 
You will want the 308 shooting 185 or 200 grain bullets but Savage has a 1:13 barrel and you would want a faster barrel. If you really want a Savage look at the Palma rifle with the adjustable cheek rest other wise look at the listings for a used one. As far as a bi-pod goes you can start with any of them but you will really want one with "ski feet" like the joypad, Sinclair or phoenix.

Better yet if you can attend a match I found that most of the shooters are more than willing to talk and give their views on different equipment.

I started with the FTR Savage and it did not take me long to put on a Manners G2 stock, Burx 1:10 barrel, Jared trigger. Golden Eagle will work for a scope just fine.
 
Looking to start shooting F-Class in FTR. I am a newbie to FClass and have some questions.

-223 vs 308. I would assume 308 is the way to go, but does the recoil comparison make it "easier" to shoot 223 more accurately? The wind drift on 223 seems like it can be extreme, especially at the 1000 yd range. I plan to start mainly shooting 600 MR events, but would like to be able to shoot 1000yds events.
-Looking at the Savage FTR rifle for starters, the cheek piece looks terrible though.
-Anyone use the Tier One bipod? Opinions on it? I assume its allowed in FTR class.
-Can you add weight to your rifle to get it close to the 18 lb limit? I know bipod, etc counts towards the total, but can i simply "stick" weights on?
-Golden Eagle looks like good scope. Anyone using the Athlon Ares ETR UHD 15-60x56?

Thanks in advance
I have both the Golden Eagle and an Athlon. I don't care much for the Athlon, have only shot Athlon at 600 yards, parallax is at infinity, don't know how it will be at 1000. I really like the Tier One bipod. Had a joypod for a while, shot better with the Tier One. Good luck, Bob
 
I have both the Golden Eagle and an Athlon. I don't care much for the Athlon, have only shot Athlon at 600 yards, parallax is at infinity, don't know how it will be at 1000. I really like the Tier One bipod. Had a joypod for a while, shot better with the Tier One. Good luck, Bob
did you have the aluminum or carbon tier one?
 
If you really want a Savage look at the Palma rifle with the adjustable cheek rest other wise look at the listings for a used one.
^^^^^ This is definitely the way to go. Currently, the Palma stock is the best FTR option with full adjustability and a pretty vertical grip. The FTR stock is awful.

If you order one through the Savage Custom Shop, you can have it delivered with the FTR contour barrel in whatever twist rate you want. Or find a used Model 12 Palma and re-barrel with any one of several aftermarket pre-threaded and chambered barrels that are available, in the twist rate you want.

OR.....get a used Palma model in 308 with a 12 or13 twist barrel and load up 155 gr. bullets and shoot the barrel out learning to read the wind and learning the game.

223 can sound tempting but you will ultimately be frustrated with its wind performance when the winds kick up a little bit at 1000, and even at 600 they can be tricky in a good wind.
 
Last edited:
I'll be the lone wolf on the Tier One bipod. I have the aluminum Tier One and have had issues with it.
No matter how tight I screw the lock screws for height adjustment lockout, the bipod will "sag" over the course of a string and require readjustment. I don't have that issue with the Phoenix or with the JoyPod-X. Unless I adjust them, they stay put.
 
A .223 Rem with a well-developed load using one of the heavy, high BC .224" bullets in the 88 to 95 gr weight range is fully capable of winning F-TR matches, especially in midrange competitions. In the right hands, a .223 with heavies can win at 1000 yd, but that is a much tougher row to hoe. A solid .223 Rem setup with heavies can be made to shoot extremely well, and the relative lack of recoil is almost certainly a contributing factor. However, such a setup will be giving up a considerable amount of wind deflection to .308 Win rifles with 200+ gr bullets in long range matches at distances of 800 to 1000 yd. Thus, one must decide if they want the benefits of shooting a .223 Rem primarily at 600 yd (or less), knowing that they will be putting themselves at a slight disadvantage against .308 Win shooters in long range matches. The relative amount of shooting anticipated in midrange versus long range matches would likely be a big part of that decision.

Regardless of which cartridge you choose, the key here is participation. New F-Class shooters can pick up a wealth of information simply by talking with more experienced shooters at matches. Thus, one approach would be not to go overboard buying gear initially, just putting together a minimalistic setup that will allow you to get started and participate, knowing that you will likely be adding more gear as you gain experience and figure out the direction you really want to go. Alternatively, there is nothing wrong with buying a decent setup at the outset that will allow you to compete for some time without necessarily needing any major upgrades.

Regardless of which direction (i.e. cartridge) you choose, I would suggest a 30" barrel length, and the rifle chamber/throat will obviously need to be set up for the relatively long heavy bullets favored by F-TR shooters (88-95 gr for .223 Rem, 185-200+ gr for .308 Win). As a general rule of thumb, you'll want a minimum 7-twist barrel for .223 Rem, or a 10-twist barrel for .308 Win. There may be other considerations for a .223 Rem that are not absolutely essential per se, but that I would strongly recommend, such as a 0.219"/0.224" bore/groove configuration barrel, which can be obtained from Bartlein or Brux. It may not seem like much of a difference, but the tighter 0.218"/0.224" barrels may increase the potential for bullet jacket failures, which is something that can be effectively cured by going with the 0.219"/0.224" configuration.

For the stock/scope/trigger/etc., personal choice is the biggest determinant here, there are many choices that can all work well, so the choices need to suit the shooter. Careful selection of these components can help prevent rifle weight issues. However, it is not that big of a deal to add weight to the rifle where necessary, certainly it is much easier to add weight than it is to remove weight from a rifle that is over the limit for F-TR (8.25 kg, or 18.18 lb).

Along the same line of thinking, the Tier One bipod will work; certainly it is sufficient to get started. I used a Harris and/or Atlas V8 bipod in F-TR for several years before moving to something else. It is important to note that the use of "traditional" bipods for F-TR such as the Harris/Atlas/Tier One/etc. has become less common as many F-TR shooters have gravitated toward the ski- or sled-type bipods. The discussion about the two different styles of bipods (traditional versus ski-type) can be saved for another discussion. The bottom line is that although there are different caveats associated with their use, both types can work well, but the rifle has to make weight with the chosen bipod. I mention this here because the Tier One bipod is extremely light for an F-TR bipod, which may be something that will have to be dealt with at a later date if a decision is made in the future to switch to a heavier bipod.

The primary reason for using a different kind of bipod is the width of the footprint. The ski-type bipods have an exceedingly wide footprint relative to something like the Tier One, and it can make for a more stable shooting platform by helping to minimize torque from the rifle. Obviously, this beneficial effect would be more pronounced with the heavier recoiling .308 Win than a .223 Rem. If you already own the Tier One bipod, it's not going to be a big detriment to use it to get started, and observing other F-TR shooters' setups may help you decide whether some other style of bipod is better suited down the road. Another option that I favor is the Long Range Accuracy bipod (https://www.eurooptic.com/long-range-accuracy-f-class-bipod.aspx), which is a traditional bipod, but that has a much wider footprint than a Harris/Atlas. I am one of the few F-TR shooters still using a "traditional" bipod, but it works for me. Like many of the ski-type bipods, the LRA bipod is substantially heavier than a Harris/Atlas, and so the weight is definitely a consideration.

The good news is that you're doing the right thing by thinking about what kind of a setup you'd like and asking questions here. You can end up with a solid rifle setup that is competitive regardless of which caliber/cartridge you select, so I wouldn't be agonize too much about that decision at this point. As I mentioned above, the sooner you get started, the sooner you will be having fun and meeting other like-minded folks at matches. If at some point down the road you decide you really want to jump into the F-TR game in a big way, your experience up to that time will better enable you to either modify your setup or acquire something new if you so choose.
 
Go with a 223 over 308. The 90 gr. Bullets will shoot with 90 percent of the 308‘s out there especially at 600 yds.

At 1K, if the ranges u shoot are out West where wind is always a factor, then 308:with heavy bullets. Ur rifle n bi-pod set - up will be more critical with the 308.

The lighter recoil of the 223 is a huge advantage over the course of the day. Get the right chamber n twist for the 90 gr. 223 bullets n u will compete quite well. The 223 will shot with the 308 all day long.
 
^^^^^ This is definitely the way to go. Currently, the Palma stock is the best FTR option with full adjustability and a pretty vertical grip. The FTR stock is awful.

If you order one through the Savage Custom Shop, you can have it delivered with the FTR contour barrel in whatever twist rate you want. Or find a used Model 12 Palma and re-barrel with any one of several aftermarket pre-threaded and chambered barrels that are available, in the twist rate you want.

OR.....get a used Palma model in 308 with a 12 or13 twist barrel and load up 155 gr. bullets and shoot the barrel out learning to read the wind and learning the game.

223 can sound tempting but you will ultimately be frustrated with its wind performance when the winds kick up a little bit at 1000, and even at 600 they can be tricky in a good wind.
I really like Warrens' response. This is your first season. Get the Palma and shoot the 155's. That gives you a good start on the basic skills of reloading, reading conditions, and finding your way behind the rifle. Set reasonable expectations and goals and just have fun with it. Spend the trigger time on the mat things will fall into place. Don't worry about what the other shooters are using. You will have enough rifle to get going with. Like Ned said, just get to it. You will have a good basic platform to shoot until you have been exposed to the myriad of options out there.
There have been a couple used Nightforce 12-42 BR's for sale on here that would be a good place to start, at a price point below a new Golden Eagle. They are solid reliable scopes.
 
I would go with a 223 to learn the sport. Dont worry about trying to win, you are likely just going to be disappointed. You will have a lot to learn about gun handling, reloading, match operation, and wind reading. The lesser recoil of the 223 will make the learning experience much easier.
 
If you have a 223 Varmint rifle start with that while you build a 308. The 223 takes less powder components are cheaper. I use one any time things get skinny in the supply chain. No recoil. The 223 will help you learn reading the wind. Because if you are wrong it will show. The 308 is just a much better option for the long haul.
 
^^^^^ This is definitely the way to go. Currently, the Palma stock is the best FTR option with full adjustability and a pretty vertical grip. The FTR stock is awful.

If you order one through the Savage Custom Shop, you can have it delivered with the FTR contour barrel in whatever twist rate you want. Or find a used Model 12 Palma and re-barrel with any one of several aftermarket pre-threaded and chambered barrels that are available, in the twist rate you want.

OR.....get a used Palma model in 308 with a 12 or13 twist barrel and load up 155 gr. bullets and shoot the barrel out learning to read the wind and learning the game.

223 can sound tempting but you will ultimately be frustrated with its wind performance when the winds kick up a little bit at 1000, and even at 600 they can be tricky in a good wind.
so is the 308 palma allowed in FTR? I assume it would be.
 
OR.....get a used Palma model in 308 with a 12 or13 twist barrel and load up 155 gr. bullets and shoot the barrel out learning to read the wind and learning the game.
This right here is great advice. I try to tell all shooters that they should shoot the 155.5's to start in order to learn the wind. The 155.5's are a great forgiving bullet that are really easy to tune, and you can see the POI changes in subtle changes of wind to help you understand what the wind does at different velocities and angles.

The heavier bullets are really picky on position and gun handling. Trying to shoot them, learn the wind, and learn gun handling for FTR at the same time will cause a lot of unneeded frustrations.
 
This right here is great advice. I try to tell all shooters that they should shoot the 155.5's to start in order to learn the wind. The 155.5's are a great forgiving bullet that are really easy to tune, and you can see the POI changes in subtle changes of wind to help you understand what the wind does at different velocities and angles.

The heavier bullets are really picky on position and gun handling. Trying to shoot them, learn the wind, and learn gun handling for FTR at the same time will cause a lot of unneeded frustrations.
A bit off topic from a sling shooter but, I agree, the 155 with a "Standard" load of 46-46.5 of Varget with an appropriate CBTO is easy to tune.

As a sling shooter who thought I had this wind reading stuff figured out shooting a 6 BRA with 105's at 1000 - going to the 155.5 Berger was truly a lesson in reading wind. Not as big an issue at 300-600 mid range but got my butt handed to me the first few times I shot Palma or LR 3x1000 with that bullet. BC matters lol.

Running the 90gr. .223 will give better wind numbers at 2800 fps than the 155 at 3000 fps but 80's are about a wash.

Not as big a factor in F-class but the recoil fatigue in the last string with the .308 hit me harder than the smaller guns do. I am going to start the season with 223 and 90's but still work on the .308 with 155 and 185's.


edit to add a drift chart
G7 BCBullet /MVMOA/MPH
1000 velo
600​
1000​
0.328​
200.20 - 2750
0.32​
0.62​
1526​
0.275​
105 H - 2980
0.35​
0.67​
1535​
0.281​
90 VLD - 2825
0.37​
0.71​
1450​
0.284​
185 -2800
0.38​
0.73​
1409​
0.274​
88ELD-M 2825
0.39​
0.75​
1400​
0.260​
107 SMK 2900
0.39​
0.76​
1410​
0.237​
155.5 - 3000
0.41​
0.82​
1360​
0.233​
80.5 -2950
0.43​
0.86​
1304​
0.217​
75 VLD-2900
0.49​
0.99​
1178​
0.190​
77 SMK -2750
0.63​
1.32​
1078​
 
A bit off topic from a sling shooter but, I agree, the 155 with a "Standard" load of 46-46.5 of Varget with an appropriate CBTO is easy to tune.

As a sling shooter who thought I had this wind reading stuff figured out shooting a 6 BRA with 105's at 1000 - going to the 155.5 Berger was truly a lesson in reading wind. Not as big an issue at 300-600 mid range but got my butt handed to me the first few times I shot Palma or LR 3x1000 with that bullet. BC matters lol.

Running the 90gr. .223 will give better wind numbers at 2800 fps than the 155 at 3000 fps but 80's are about a wash.

Not as big a factor in F-class but the recoil fatigue in the last string with the .308 hit me harder than the smaller guns do. I am going to start the season with 223 and 90's but still work on the .308 with 155 and 185's.


edit to add a drift chart
G7 BCBullet /MVMOA/MPH
1000 velo
600​
1000​
0.328​
200.20 - 2750
0.32​
0.62​
1526​
0.275​
105 H - 2980
0.35​
0.67​
1535​
0.281​
90 VLD - 2825
0.37​
0.71​
1450​
0.284​
185 -2800
0.38​
0.73​
1409​
0.274​
88ELD-M 2825
0.39​
0.75​
1400​
0.260​
107 SMK 2900
0.39​
0.76​
1410​
0.237​
155.5 - 3000
0.41​
0.82​
1360​
0.233​
80.5 -2950
0.43​
0.86​
1304​
0.217​
75 VLD-2900
0.49​
0.99​
1178​
0.190​
77 SMK -2750
0.63​
1.32​
1078​
You’re stepping on the gas pedal with the 200 20x
 

Upgrades & Donations

This Forum's expenses are primarily paid by member contributions. You can upgrade your Forum membership in seconds. Gold and Silver members get unlimited FREE classifieds for one year. Gold members can upload custom avatars.


Click Upgrade Membership Button ABOVE to get Gold or Silver Status.

You can also donate any amount, large or small, with the button below. Include your Forum Name in the PayPal Notes field.


To DONATE by CHECK, or make a recurring donation, CLICK HERE to learn how.

Forum statistics

Threads
166,123
Messages
2,210,887
Members
79,362
Latest member
cokebarb
Back
Top