FTR bullets

[T-shooter]

These are the dimensions I use in a standard chamber .308.

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

I'd have to dig up the ICFRA rules and the stuff that the Connaught crew sent around prior to the World's in 2017. They checked the chamber of the rifle by putting in an insert and closing the bolt and they also picked up a few cartridges and placed them in a guage.

Connaught had MV/BC restriction because behind the target line they have the Ottawa River and the province on Quebec on the other side.

Essentially, they were testing the chambers and cartridges to make sure the chamber was safe and the cartridge was not of an "improved" design. I'll see if I can dig up the docs they sent.

I am not aware of any F-TR rifle/ammo combo failing the tests, but that means nothing as there were a lot of people there and I was only aware of what was happening in my immediate area.

That, and a lot of the discussion between the officials was in French.

Oh, wait.

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

I found the document from Connaught about the two guages, one for the chamber and the other for the loaded cartridge. I also found the ICFRA rule on the cartridges:


F2.3 An F/TR Class rifle is limited to .223 Remington or .308 Winchester Calibre chambers or their commercial metrification equivalents. Chamber dimensions must conform to SAAMI or CIP dimensions. Bore, Groove and Throat dimensions may be selected to suit bullets used. Ammunition may be commercially made of hand-loaded as defined in Rule F2.20. There is no restriction on bullet weight.

Rule F2.20 talks about not using steel core bullets, tracers, depleted uranium and no monolithic bullets or sabot rounds are allowed.

It would seem that cup and core are the ONLY allowed bullets at ICFRA. My book is the 2014 edition. There may be newer rules that allow monolithic bullets, but I would be surprised.

 

[Ned Ludd]

How the rules from any sanctioning body regarding F-TR chamber dimensions are written is all well and good, but if an official ever wants to actually check to see your chamber is legal, they're going to stick something in it...a piece of brass, a dummy round, a factory round, whatever. I've never personally seen this done, but if it is, it better fit in your chamber. A very tight neck chamber in use by someone that likes to seriously turn down necks might cause a problem. It's just something to be aware of.

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

How the rules from any sanctioning body regarding F-TR chamber dimensions are written is all well and good, but if an official ever wants to actually check to see your chamber is legal, they're going to stick something in it...a piece of brass, a dummy round, a factory round, whatever. I've never personally seen this done, but if it is, it better fit in your chamber. A very tight neck chamber in use by someone that likes to seriously turn down necks might cause a problem. It's just something to be aware of.

Let me see if I can help with that.

If you look at the document I included in my earlier post, you will see the drawings of 4 guages; 2 for .223 Rem and 2 for 308. Viewed another way; 2 chamber guages and 2 cartridge guages.

If you look at the chamber guages, you will notice the total absence of anything to do with the neck and the throat. In fact, the chamber guages I've even seen, never have anything further than the shoulder of the bottlenose rifle case. These guages are used to measure the headspace on the chamber, which is the distance from the bolt face to the datum line on the shoulder. As I explained earlier, the chamber guage is only used to validate the headspace, for safety reasons.

My Match F-TR rifle's chamber was checked with such a case at the World's in 2017 at Connaught. I do not remember if it was checked at the 2013 Worlds in Raton. I just don't remember.

I just can't see someone using a non-standard chamber guage, with a neck. It's counterproductive and can easily do damage to the chamber.

 

[Ned Ludd]

It's not about using a non-standard chamber gauge, with or without a neck. It's about using a standard gauge that conforms to SAAMI or CIP specs, whatever that may be. To my way of thinking, that implies having a neck, which is an important part of the chamber specs. I completely agree with you that a neckless (or shortened neck) gauge would be the way to go. Nonetheless, I'm not convinced that this actually conforms to the spirit or intent of the rules limiting F-TR to unmodified .223 Rem or .308 Win. cartridges. If factory .223 Rem of .308 Win ammunition won't fit into a very tight-neck chamber because the necks haven't been turned, I personally wouldn't consider that chamber to be unmodified.

The Rulebook section you posted on the previous page has additional language regarding bore, groove, and throat dimensions as compared to previous versions, which did not contain that language. However, there is still no mention of whether it's legal to run a tight neck chamber. The NRA has apparently avoided such language for a reason, although the topic of whether tight neck chambers are (or should be) legal has been debated as long as I can remember. I think you are right about the gauge - as long as no match director or line official ever whips out a gauge that has a neck, it shouldn't be a problem, regardless of how I or anyone else interprets the term "unmodified". Nonetheless, I've seen some odd things happen at local matches and the Match Director's word is pretty much Law in those instances. Let's just hope it never happens to anyone, which is entirely possible, and perhaps the wording of the Rule will eventually be modified to cover this aspect.

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

When the rules talk about unmodified .223 or .308, what that means is they do not want a .223 Ackley Improved or a .308 Ackley Improved with the shoulder blown forward and now you can have 10gr more of powder.

I went to Brownells to look at the chamber guages and guess what? They are all neckless. They are only used to measure headspace.

The wording about having the throat dimension as you need them is exactly for that. They don't care about turned necks, or tight necks or goosenecks or turkey necks, or turtlenecks. They want to be sure you are using a SAAMI or CIP .223 or .308 case from the neck down and you can neck with your cases all you want.

Let me introduce a new concept to you: OVERTHINKING.

 

[BP1]

When the rules talk about unmodified .223 or .308, what that means is they do not want a .223 Ackley Improved or a .308 Ackley Improved with the shoulder blown forward and now you can have 10gr more of powder.

I went to Brownells to look at the chamber guages and guess what? They are all neckless. They are only used to measure headspace.

The wording about having the throat dimension as you need them is exactly for that. They don't care about turned necks, or tight necks or goosenecks or turkey necks, or turtlenecks. They want to be sure you are using a SAAMI or CIP .223 or .308 case from the neck down and you can neck with your cases all you want.

Let me introduce a new concept to you: OVERTHINKING.

Thanks for clearing that up Denys.

 

[Ned Ludd]

I am not unfamiliar with the concept of "over-thinking", in fact, I'd even go so far as to say it's my mantra. Nonetheless, I have seen this topic debated by others on occasion for years, so I must not be alone. Along that line of thinking, here's a scenario for you: If the bore/groove configuration can be anything the shooter wants, the neck isn't defined, and gauges that only [effectively] measure headspace are used, what would stop someone from using a 7-08 in F-TR with potentially higher ballistic efficiency than any typical .308 Win? No neckless gauge would ever reveal that it wasn't a .30 cal bore. According to strict interpretation of the rules, I don't see how that could be considered illegal; they don't specify caliber or bore diameter, per se.