FT/R vs slingshooters

[broncman]

Fo those that have done both FT/R and sling, either palma or any/any, which do you find the most challenging?

The bigger sling target with open sights, the smaller f class limited to 308,223? Both classes some would say have their plus and minuses.

From those that HAVE done both, what are your thoughts?

Really interested in trying out sling, but that is a about as much to set up for as the other classes!

 

[XTR]

I haven't done both, but one of the sling shooters (Jim Sokolowski) you shot with at OR a couple of weeks ago has. He says sling is harder, and I believe him. Pretty much anyone can get in the black with an F class rifle with a few sighters, (my very first shot ever from 1000 yards was in the black) and F class shooters can hold off for wind, something that really doesn't work at all for sling shooters. F class requires a higher level of wind reading, but unless something weird is happening with the wind or you have bad loads F class shooters don't see much vertical, the rest takes care of that for us.

That said, it is far harder to shoot Master in F class. Someone pls correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't know of a single person who has made High Master in F class since the target changed in 2006 or so. I don't think it can be done in F-TR unless one of our very good shooters gets about three weekends in a row with phenomenal wind conditions.

I will tell you that if you show up at one of the ORSA practice sessions and you want to try someone will let you give it a whirl, the only problem for you will be that they all have really nice rifles

 

[hockeyref]

I kinda see them "the same but different"..... I love sling shooting and have yet to really master it. I managed to earn an Expert LR card with an AR15 service rifle @ 1000 yards and have had very little opportunity to shoot LR since then (I'm also a master x-course so I know that I have room for improvement that will only come with some dedicated practice). I shot a couple tactical matches when F-Class was just gaining steam in the US a while back (and the tactical guys originally thought that the FT was F Tactical and not target).. That rifle shot well, but is just not up to the standard needed for today's' FT/R. Before the switch to the smaller target it almost seemed easy to shoot F-Class and that did bring a bunch of seasoned shooters over from the ranks of sling shooting. IMHO the smaller target was needed for competition but some of the guys that came over from x-course and sling didn't like it as it put the difficulty level back in line with Irons\Sling. That said, I now mainly shoot Mid Range (500 yards) as that is what we offer at my home range - I thankfully now have a job, but hate that it is interfering with my extracurricular activities much more than my previous one.

Let's see, I pretty much shoot the same calibers that I shoot across the course and am familiar with their ballistics, but now I get to use a rest and optics.... COOL! The best F-class score I shot on the big target was 599 32x (3x500 yards) in one of the first F-Class matches we ran on my home range. Best score on the small target was a 197 - (2x500) I don't recall the x count - with a borrowed rifle that I ultimately purchased for my daughter. I've bounced back and forth between sling\irons match rifle, sling\irons Service rifle, FT/R and F Unlimited.... Each is a challenge unto itself due to the differences and limitations\demands on the equipment, the difficulty of the target, and my own ineptitude... I hope that I'll have enough rounds down range some time soon that are actually reported to get some classification cards issued for F-Class and MR..... But I still do it 'cuz it's fun and a personal challenge.

 

[broncman]

One of my goals I set when I started was to one day make high master. That is a long ways off. Sometimes I think F class actually handicaps you in learning wind because of the holdoff. Really looking forward to making a few practices so I can simply hold x and associate a true value to that without worrying about score.

I do not want to switch just to make highmaster one day but the more I watch these guys, the more intrigued I become. Right now my focus is on wind and mastering what I have. Hopefully collect some equipment for the other discipline as I go. Jumping back and forth between the two might cause problems.

Starting to believe that due to the strict discipline in sling...that it could make you a better FT/R shooter.

Ken

 

[morpheus]

Since you mentioned me, I will give some additional feedback. I never really shot F-T/R though, just F-Open. I think all long-range shooting has its challenges and rewards, but for me personally, at this particular moment in time, I find the challenges of shooting Sling more intriguing and satisfying than those of F-Open. Maybe next year will be different. Or maybe I'll give F-T/R a go some time and have even more insight.

I will say the "bigger" target is more than compensated for by the fact that no artificial rest is part of the equation. On the other hand, I think it's "easier" to attain HM classification in Any/Irons sling shooting than either F-Open or F-T/R.

I love all long-range shooting. These are just my personal observations. Your mileage may vary. I think each "side" of the equation has its contribution to making someone a better shooter.

 

[hockeyref]

Wind?
Coming over from service rifle, the way I read\see\think wind is probably different from someone who has never shot Irons. Sling and irons pretty much necessitates reading the wind, making a call, and twisting the knobs to some extent. I look at the flags and mirage and think in terms of speed, angle, and click\MOA allowance. When shooting with optics I have to convert that to a location to hold off. In trying to teach my daughter to read wind she's all about relating conditions to hold offs but gets really glassy eyed if I start talking about MOA values...

So is it a handicap or is it just learning to think about it differently? I will say that I feel that just holding off without have a notion of what's going on out there and why you are holding where you do will lead to chasing the spotter around the target.

 

[memilanuk]

It's a little hard to answer something like this, because not many people shoot one discipline at the same level they do the other - so its not easy to give an accurate comparison.

It's usually easier to start out shooting better scores in F/TR, assuming one starts with good equipment and ammo. Due to its fairly 'open' nature, you often see people show up with gear totally unsuited to the task at hand. Sometimes they do okay... a lot of times they do not... and the smaller scoring rings can make that a very punishing experience.

For sling shooting... there are a number of things that need to be sorted out that can't be solved at the loading bench or thru buying a new piece of gear. Setting up the sights, getting used to the coat and sling and glove, getting things arranged so you can actually stand to lay there trussed up somewhat comfortably for 20-30 minutes, working out details of your position... all similar to F/TR, but with a different level of emphasis.

A couple things that I've heard repeatedly from people who are very good sling shooters who try F/TR... one, that its not as easy as they thought it would be - they figured that since they can shoot a good score with a high X-count with irons, that with the bipod holding the gun up they should be able to just blast out the center of the smaller X. Doesn't usually work that way, and they begin to appreciate that many of the things necessary to good shooting on the big target are still very necessary on the F-Class center, but in slightly different ways. Once they get that straight in their head, they are usually off and running, as they've spent a fair amount of range time already learning to read the wind pretty well. The other thing I've heard from some better sling shooters was that they recommended shooting F/TR specifically for training due to the finer wind-reading /calculation necessary to hit that smaller X. Those folks... those are the ones that

Me, personally... usually I shoot better @ F-Class on my bad days than I do sling on my good days, but for me shooting sling is much more relaxing - I just don't sweat it very much when confronted with a 20" 10-ring, where all manner of position mistakes and missed wind can be swallowed therein. Not saying I hit it every time... but the calculations necessary are so much coarser its just not as stressful for me.

 

[broncman]

As a newcomer, the mid day winds can really take it out of you when you have a really good morning score. I really have to discipline myself to make a judgement on wind speed instead of chasing.

Hopefully going to Tullahoma this weekend and score or not my focus will be on making a judgement call instead of a chasing.

Ken

 

[mysticplayer]

I shot smallbore silhouette years back and got pretty good on my hind legs and supporting that rifle. Pretty steady even with a high mag scope.

Recently, been all F Class or bench something or other - ie supported shooting.

If I can get the wind right, I can hit the X ring. Done some good shooting.

There is a new opportunity to shoot what we call Service rifle - essentially your High power but different. I grabbed a rifle, lay on the ground and looked at a target. GOOD GRIEF, I am wobbling so much wind reading really isn't important. Then the fatigue of having to support the rifle came and things got even worse.

Far heavier triggers too. NO finese, this is trap shooting on my belly... swing through the target and smack that trigger!!!!

So, with 1 time on my elbows, I will give the nod to sling shooters for lots to learn and harder to accomplish. By far, a more physical sport. Will not be using a jacket nor sling so likely this makes things tougher.

But it is a new skill to learn so am going to enjoy spraying lead downrange

Jerry

 

[6BRinNZ]

why not just click instead of holding?....I do find it interesting as either way you have to make a wind call...

You may not be doing this - a lot of F-classers chat away until its their time to shoot...they then lie down make an assessment and start chasing the spotter....this is a tough way to produce a good score....compounding this approach they don't have a timer on the line. They normally start shooting straight away - when the wind moves to somewhere different, they get impatient as waiting on the line can seem like an age....this forces them to make a call on a condition that they probably/possibly shouldn't/didn't need to shoot in....the points rapidly disappear.

To my mind HM scores are decided some time before lying down and shooting...a generalisation I know...

 

[XTR]

Ken, I turn the knobs 90% of the time, and I almost never hold outside of the 10 ring. On occasion I'll hold as far as the (9) in the 9 ring but that's about it. One shot when you were scoring for me at ORSA I was totally lost and held all the way to the 8 right (and hit an 8 or a weak 9 left) That match at ORSA was so switchy that by the time I put something on it was wrong, or at least it seemed so. In conditions like that I may hold for expediency. (though as bad as my scores were it surely didn't recommend itself to successful shooting)

For the most part I feel more comfortable dialing. In that way I guess I'm more like irons shooters.

 

[243Mendoza]

I mainly shoot sling any/any and hold off most of the time for wind. I have shot F-open and find it more comfortable since I am not wearing a heavy shooting coat and my arm is not constrained by a sling; I also find reading the wind to be easier since my field of view is larger and the scope steadier to read mirage; I can shoot faster since the rifle is on target sooner. But you need different skills in getting a good shoot off since it's closer to benchrest than highpower; your ammo and rifle needs to be more accurate and your wind reading skills may need to be higher. It seems getting a good score is more difficult than highpower if you look at match results.

 

[lperry63]

I've shot sling, FO and FTR. Of the three, I think it's hardest to get a really good score shooting FTR. I only shot FO to get a better NRA classification than I could get with FTR (that was back when I first started). I've almost made Master with an FTR rifle in long-range but I keep throwing one bad match into each good run.... One day I'll get there... Anybody who can get high master long range FTR is a really good shooter!

Laura

 

[broncman]

I got my midrange card last fall. I had been tracking my scores and was stoked on my second match the second day. I had a great score that morning and new that if I kept it above 190 I would be close to classifying for expert with the previous days score. Was also a little nervous over an issue with my scorer....so....I accidently shot in the prep period..i went from high 180's/low 190's to a...........165...

So...ended up sharpshooter. I will redeem that this year.

As far as longrange classification, we will see how far I get...

 

[Ahhnother8]

Sling shooting is far more difficult. One cannot simply compare classifications between any disciplines. The only proper comparison is: what does it take to be competitive? Most any competent sling shooter can switch to f-class and be competitive rather quickly. The converse is assuredly not the case.

Regarding classifications: They are mostly irrelevant in any type of long-range shooting. Scores are too dependent upon local conditions. Ones ranking in the match results is all that matters.

Lane
Slinger & F'er

 

[Mudcat]

Re: FT/R AND slingshooters

I think Lige is right on the money. As someone that participates in both (though at any big match you will see me on the sling), and the father of an 11 yr old son that shoots F class, I would agree with what Lige said. Take my 11 yr old for instance, he started shooting competition at 10 yrs old, shooting 600 and 1000 yard matches. Just drop him on a rifle, and he is off to the races. You cant do that with sling, even for an adult. His first match at 1000 he shot a 182 for his high, on his second outing, a 195-7. Yeah, he is still figuring out the wind, but if its a coached match and I turn the knobs, its hammer time.

Thats what I love about F class, I can take a total noob, put them on a rifle and they can have fun, out competing right along side of the rest of us. The problem with sling shooting is that I cant do that with most folks as just slinging up is a task, and holding the rifle steady is another ball of wax as well. Then add in irons, wind, etc, etc. With F class, we can remove a whole lot of the varibles and difficult stuff and put them on a rifle and let them have fun. Yeah, wind might tear them a new one, but it takes a pretty big F up to miss the target once you are on it. My hope is that with all of this we can keep the sport alive, as you have to admit, what we do is pretty darn boring except to those of us that do it! Thus, why we are never going to see it on TV on Sunday afternoon.

And, I changed the subject as this isnt a "vs" thing. We all shoot and we all shoot together and I never want my son thinking that what he is doing is adverse or contrary to what I am doing. We are shooting, period, just doing so in different categories. Why some folks want to make it a battle of some sort is beyond me (not that our OP did that, intended that, or anyone here has, but you know what I am talking about).

Now get out and shoot.
John

 

[broncman]

Agreed on the vs but I was mainly talking FT/R and not F open. Primarily the score issue with the 308 since it is used in both sling and FT/R.

I also guess their is a parralel with any/any and F Open.

Sounds like your son is off to a great start. Enjoy it while you can. Mine all got to shoot some F matches at that age..now they all have cars, part time jobs, girlfriends and cant take off for a weekend....

 

[Dans40X]

I prefer LR shooting any/open or any/any w/a sling & cranking knobs for Dope on the WTC's as I don't hold off.
Dope it & Call it..

Chasing a spotter is like a dog chasing his tail-he'll never get ahead of the game.


I'd don't require "crutches" to hold up my rifle!!

Some of these monstrosity F Class bipods look like a modified/cannibalized front suspension from a snow machine!!!

 

[Hombre0321]

I prefer LR shooting any/open or any/any w/a sling & cranking knobs for Dope on the WTC's as I don't hold off.
Dope it & Call it..

Chasing a spotter is like a dog chasing his tail-he'll never get ahead of the game.


I'd don't require "crutches" to hold up my rifle!!

Some of these monstrosity F Class bipods look like a modified/cannibalized front suspension from a snow machine!!!

Can't really tell if those comments are done tongue in cheek or not, hope so, but it is the same old crap that sling shooters use to downgrade F-Class. I've heard it a dozen times in a dozen different places, gets old and you would think that they would come up with some new way to downgrade there fellow shooters. However the snobbery of Sling Shooters is just something we all have to deal with. Kinda speaks to not who they are, but what they are more than anything.

Now with that said and to address the original question. I have shot both and personally don't feel that a blanket statement as to which is more challenging can be made. Sling shooting is tough no doubt about that. I like to dial and shoot, make a best guess ( and it is always a "Guess") as to the wind and dial it in and shoot. For me that makes the shooter a better wind reader, there is no other choice when shooting open sights. Hold off's are just not possible when your looking at a target with no definition.

However that doesn't mean that holding off is an inferior way to address the target, it is just a different way to do that. One that is possible with a scope and not with open sights.

F-Class brings another whole set of problems and it is a challenge in its own right. Not sure at all that one is tougher than the other just different.

Roland

 

[Steve Blair]

This is a fairly pointless comparison. German Salazar, a fine shooter who excelled in both sling and F-T/R, opined that the two disciplines are just different. Sling shooters should note that their equipment is largely unrelated to anything else, except sling shooting. Ungainly rifles, sights mostly useless anywhere except when shooting at round bulls, the "sling" itself, shooting coat, etc. I shot HP in the eighties, both Service and Match rifle, so it's not like I haven't been there. [br]
Practitioners in other areas, like sniping and hunting, have come to view bipods as useful tools. It's not the only way to shoot but it can help in some situations. Varmint shooters often shoot from rests when working Prairie Dog towns. It is easier to stay on target with an F-T/R rifle but not to win. The score range is simply narrower. I've also seen some Sling national champions shoot F-T/R and, while they shot well, they did not win. So, there must be something more to it than laying down and wasting ammo. [br]
Having shot Sling, F-T/R and F-Open, my take is: Sling is the most physically demanding and has the longest learning curve to show respectable results. F-T/R requires precision shooting on the F-Class target but has cartridge limitations and there is always that damn bipod to manage. F-Open requires the highest level of wind reading and precision to be competitive at the top. Making Long Range HM is difficult in F-Open and almost impossible in F-T/R. Not only is the target smaller but the required scores are higher. Sling HM requires 97%, F-Class HM is 98%. Sling Master starts at 94%, the same point that F-Class Expert starts.