Free Floating of the forarm is it absolutly essential

[bigedp51]

ChrisNZ & lelongcarabine

There are many ways to bed a rifle and free floating a barrel is just one of them. Standard weight Remington barrels have up pressure at the fore end tip because Remington found they shoot better that way with factory loaded ammunition.

So I will repeat myself, both Remington and the British military found that their rifles shot better with up pressure at the fore end tip.

On the heavy barrel Enfields the Australians free floated the barrel and put a rubber grommet in the nose cap to support the barrel and dampen barrel vibrations.

Below from the Shooting Times link I posted is a photo of a after market plastic stock and a laid up fiberglass stock, BOTH have a up pressure contact point at the fore end tip. Up pressure at the fore end tip is not a "cheap trick" it is used to control barrel vibrations and improve accuracy.

Just for your information I just sold off four of my Enfield rifles and bought another Savage 200 and a Remington 700. I do not conceder the Savage with a free floating barrel a liability any more than the Remington 700 with up pressure at the fore end tip. Both rifles will shoot under an inch with hand loads and I'm still working on load development and I have no plans to free float the Remington barrel.

(I also have no plans to remove the sway bars on my Ford truck and free float the front end, the sway bars were put there for a reason)

ChrisNZ, 95% of all Enfield books and manuals you see on the internet today were put there by me. I just didn't collect Enfield rifles, I also collected all the printed "facts" that were published. The Enfield Rifle had up pressure at the fore end tip for a reason and it was done because of trial testing and experience.

A British and Commonwealth military manual is "NOT" a cheap trick when it comes to bedding a rifle.

I also learned a great deal while collecting Enfield rifles. ;D

 

[ChrisNZ]

Well that's the -only- way you'll beat the All Blacks ;D

ChrisNZ

 

[Ironworker]

Not out of the woods yet. Yesterdays load was WW brass Fed LR Mag primer 70grs of Re#25 160gr Sierra GK touching the lands.( Average MV was 3,200 FPS) Shooting off a Caldwell tack driver rest off hood of my truck and rolled up shirt for rear rest. It grouped better then previous shooting before free floating at Aprox 100 yds. Then shot at same target at Aprox 250 yds and I missed entire target. ??? Maybe I didn't have stock screws tightened right? I shot at a big rock and it was shooting way right,adjusted the scope and was able to hit one out of 3 water filled tin cans at about 250 yds. Any way I lightened trigger a little bit and made sure of stock screw tightness. I need to shoot off a much better rest and start over again. This is a factory laminate stock I wonder if its too narrow to produce precision accuracy ? Any suggestions ? I want a 1/2 MOA rifle ? I'm worried :-[

 

[fivering]

I have never seen such a plethora of mis-information on a single subject in my lifetime, by such a wide variety of self appointed authorities on a subject.
Our present knowledge of what makes a rifle shoot well is light years ahead of what was known by WWII, yet manuals from an army of that time are used as an "authority"?
Just go down the firing line of any major match, be it a Bench Rest or Long Range High Power, and see what percentage of barrels of the winning shooters are NOT free floated.

 

[bigedp51]

I have never seen such a plethora of mis-information on a single subject in my lifetime, by such a wide variety of self appointed authorities on a subject.
Our present knowledge of what makes a rifle shoot well is light years ahead of what was known by WWII, yet manuals from an army of that time are used as an "authority".
Just go down the firing line of any major match, be it a Bench Rest or Long Range High Power, and see what percentage of barrels of the winning shooters are NOT free floated.

Anyone with a computer and two fingers can be an "authority" in any forum and the type bedding depends on the type rifle and how it is used.

If you are an authority on bedding rifles and free floating barrels then tell the man how to fix his rifle and stop being a sarcastic know it all.

Free floating a barrel is not the end all do all panacea that many of you make it out to be.

Example: Why did they hang a BOSS on the end of a free floating high power rifle barrel if it wasn't for controlling barrel vibrations and "IMPROVING" accuracy. The bottom line is simple, there are many forms of barrel bedding and ways to control barrel vibrations and improve accuracy.

There are approximately six methods of action and barrel bedding used today and "yesterday" for bedding a rifle.

1. Full contact bedding of the action with the barrel floated.
2. Full contact bedding of the action and the barrel.
3. Full contact bedding of the action with a pressure-bearing pad for the barrel.
4. Pillar bedding of the action with the barrel floated.
5. A full length aluminum action bedding block.
6. The action glued to the stock with the barrel floated.

Number 3 above is the method used on the 60 plus year old military No.4 Enfield rifle and standard sporter weight Remington 700 rifle sold today.

Below is from Precision Shooting Magazine

Barrel vibrations and how barrel tuners work.

"Years ago I bought a new Remington Model 700 ADL in 222 Remington caliber. I wanted a ground hog gun. I also bought a couple of boxes of Remington factory loads. I put a K-10 Weaver on it and took it to the range. Some of my buddies were there and I sighted it in and shot some groups and it shot pretty good, wasn’t hot by no means. So Bill Calfee knew just how to help the accuracy of this little rifle. I took the thing home, got a wooden dowel rod, wrapped it with sand paper and sanded out the barrel channel in the stock and floated the barrel. Remington back then, and maybe now too, left a raised section in the barrel channel of the stock right at the fore-end tip to apply upward pressure to the barrel. They did this because over the years they discovered a little fore end pressure on those skinny, sporter weight barrels would make a greater percentage of them perform better than if they floated those light barrels. Anyway, I floated my barrel and headed back to the range. My buddies had gone which was a blessing, as that rifle would not shoot in a bucket with that barrel floated. I wound up gluing a yellow plastic shim back in the fore-end tip to put pressure back on the barrel and it went back to shooting ok. Back then I did not hand load and of course folks float sporter barrels and hand load for them and improve accuracy sometimes. I got rid of it because it was not too hot."

http://www.ozfclass.com/articles/1/psm_2005_03.html

So please show me the "plethora of mis-information" posted here. I don't go around telling people to free float their sporter weight barrels when they were designed to have up pressure to make them shoot better. The amount of up pressure by increasing or decreasing the up pressure weight is what is used to "tune" the accuracy just like adjusting the BOSS tuning weight at the end of the barrel is used to "tune" the barrel and group size.

 

[lelongcarabine]

Ironworker, There are several tidbits to a M-70 that will really mess with your head, assuming your action has already been properly bedded. You touched on one; The tightness of the tang screws. BTW. Tighten the front screw first, then tighten the rear screw. If you have a 3rd screw in front of the trigger (two piece bottom metal), tighten it all the way and back it off about 1/2 turn. #2. Is there clearence around the tang screws or are they tight in the stock holes? #3. Does the extractor touch the back of the barrel, in its clearence notch. #4. Are your front scope mount screws long enough to bottom out against the barrel extension. The very foremost screw would be the most likely culprit. #5. Check all your scope mount screws.
If you can clear this punch list and it is still inconsistant, then I would elect for trying the forend tip bedding, again, by very carefully building a temporary experimental pad.
Its good that you did clean out the barrel channel. That will eliminate nonuniform pressure points. PS. I dont claim to be an expert. This is just a brainstorming session. Hopefully it is helpful. Greg

 

[mikecr]

Water filled cans 250yds out?
Off the truck hood?
This is your testing?
No, it's just you twisting us down a truly hopeless path...

 

[Ironworker]

Water filled cans 250yds out?
Off the truck hood?
This is your testing?
No, it's just you twisting us down a truly hopeless path...

I'll tell ya I have a Rem 700 Sendero model It has a Hart bull bbl chambered in 6x284. With this same set up I have no problem shooting same 16oz Rock Star cans at 300 yds. We've all seen military snipers on the History channel make incredible shots all in less then ideal circumstances. Tomorrow I'll go to a public range that has stable bench.

 

[Ironworker]

Ironworker, There are several tidbits to a M-70 that will really mess with your head, assuming your action has already been properly bedded. You touched on one; The tightness of the tang screws. BTW. Tighten the front screw first, then tighten the rear screw. If you have a 3rd screw in front of the trigger (two piece bottom metal), tighten it all the way and back it off about 1/2 turn. #2. Is there clearence around the tang screws or are they tight in the stock holes? #3. Does the extractor touch the back of the barrel, in its clearence notch. #4. Are your front scope mount screws long enough to bottom out against the barrel extension. The very foremost screw would be the most likely culprit. #5. Check all your scope mount screws.
If you can clear this punch list and it is still inconsistant, then I would elect for trying the forend tip bedding, again, by very carefully building a temporary experimental pad.
Its good that you did clean out the barrel channel. That will eliminate nonuniform pressure points. PS. I dont claim to be an expert. This is just a brainstorming session. Hopefully it is helpful. Greg

Thanks a bunch for this information

 

[Ironworker]

Wonder if the tang screws weren't tight ?What is the fix for that? A piller? I've already have it glass bedded. I tightened the rear screw first ,so I guess loosen it and tighten it again . I'm not sure if the extractor touches the back of the barrel in its clearance notch ? What is right touching or not ? I have a Picannty scope rail mounted on it ? Now I'm really worried.

 

[lelongcarabine]

IMHO, The tang screw holes, in the stock, need to be larger than the diameter of the tang screws. Start your tightening sequence with the front screw. and the rear screw completely removed. This will tell you if the bedding has a hump in it. When you tighten the front screw, the rear tang should not raise out of the stock. If it does, that needs to be corrected by removing the high spot in the bedding or rebedding. If the tang did not raise, install the rear screw and tighten. The best way is by using an inch pound torque wrench and getting the screws tightened alike. There may be someone here that can give you a torque spec.? I just tighten them by hand. The middle screw is tightened then backed off no more than 1/2 turn.
The extractor should NOT touch the barrel in its clearence slot(or any place else.)
The scope rail is fine, just inspect those screws that attach it to the receiver ring. They need to be just long enough for full contact with the threads in the receiver but not extending down onto the barrel tenon, inside the receiver ring.
What kind of bedding was used on your rifle?
Dont get worried! Its just a project that needs a step by step approach and patience. Greg

 

[Ironworker]

There are 3 screws 1st one tightens the stock to action along with magazine floor plate 2nd one ( middle screw) is the front screw on trigger guard and keeps the mag box in place and the 3rd one( Rear screw) screws into action . So bottom material is two pieces . How is tightening the front screw going to lift the rear tang up if its a separate piece . Not sure what bedding material is its a brown colored hard stuff.

 

[lelongcarabine]

OK, Lets number the tang screws in tightening sequence. The front tang screw is #1. The REAR tang screw is #2. The middle tang screw(in front of the trigger guard) is #3.
The reason you look for the rear tang(of the receiver) to rise is to test to see if you have a high spot in the bedding. If that is the case, when you tighten the rear tang screw(#2) in sequence, you will bend the action. That shows that the bedding was not correctly done.
That is also one reason NOT to tighten the #3 screw, if you have a low spot in the center of the bedding. Greg

 

[Ironworker]

Ok just got back from shooting it. I tightened up the screws in the sequence posted . Secured the best rest I could and now I have a shooter. I was able to get a couple under 1/2 MOA groups at a aprox 100 yds. Then shot a couple 16 oz water filled Rock Star cans 300+ yds out that I set on rocks in the Nevada desert....... Is it possible that a brand new bbl doesn't start shooting good till its had a few shots through it ? I first shot 21 rounds and cleaned it with KG1 then another 21 rnds and cleaned it again with same. So today shooting was good. Thanks all for time and effort posting on my thread .

 

[lelongcarabine]

Glad you got it shooting! Thats good news! I know you have a Brux barrel. There are posts on the Shooters Forum that address the breakin process. Heres one from a barrel maker. Greg

http://www.kriegerbarrels.com/Break_In__Cleaning-c1246-wp2558.htm