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FPS vs Accuracy Question

SDDasher

Wes Cummings
Gold $$ Contributor
Today I went to the range and shot twenty rounds using the round robin method @ .3 grain increments five rounds each. The velocities were in the range of 2450 to 2550 from lowest to highest group both in FPS and Grains of Powder.
The last group had a spread of .502 @ 200yds which is my goal for an accurate round. However, the speed is pitiful to say the least. Bullet is the 140 Berger Hybrid in a .260 Remy.
My question to you is what would be an acceptable FPS @ 600/1000 minimally for this round? I understand 2550 is too slow on windy days much like we have here in the south on most days competing. Is 2750 the slowest one should strive for in a round of this configuration? I am trying to arrive at an acceptable speed/accuracy and just wanted to hear what the common thoughts were on the topic of speed & accuracy. Thanks
 
What is your barrel length?

What powder and what are the charge weights?
 
30" Krieger 1/8 twist, using Accurate 4350 from 39.3 to 41.2 using Quickload as the base @ 80 degrees is supposed to be rated at 2747-2865 give or take 10%. Same slow speeds happened to a Buddy with same caliber BBL etc.
 
At the Accurate Powder site, you can download their Loading Data, version 3.5. It's free. For the 260 Remington with 4350 in the 140gr bullet, they show 39.1 to 43.5 and their velocity is 2750 for their max load. Granted, it is in a 24 inch 1:9 twist barrel, but it seems to me that you are leaving a lot of performance by limiting yourself to 41.2 grains when the powder manufacturer lists 43.5 as the maximum.

You have found an accuracy node at that low charge, I would continue to increment the load looking for an accuracy node at a higher velocity. With your barrel length you should be able to get closer to 2800 or more and you should be able to find an accuracy node closer to those velocities.
 
With all due respect, I am not limiting myself to anything by asking a question about speed v accuracy. I merely used the QL program to stay within pressure limits for this powder. The load you suggest at 43.5 is way over pressure and I respectfully refuse to abuse my equipment running those risks.

I was also looking for any other shooters using this powder who may have experienced similar variances in speed or had opinions about speed v accuracy. Everything I have seen says this powder is a good powder for the 260. I am looking for optimum speed (?), Barrel time and powder burn for my equipment.

The 260 is a new chambering for me and I was trying to find what velocity was acceptable for F class shooting @ 600/1000. Thanks for your reply.
 
6brmrshtr said:
With all due respect, I am not limiting myself to anything by asking a question about speed v accuracy. I merely used the QL program to stay within pressure limits for this powder. The load you suggest at 43.5 is way over pressure and I respectfully refuse to abuse my equipment running those risks.

I was also looking for any other shooters using this powder who may have experienced similar variances in speed or had opinions about speed v accuracy. Everything I have seen says this powder is a good powder for the 260. I am looking for optimum speed (?), Barrel time and powder burn for my equipment.

The 260 is a new chambering for me and I was trying to find what velocity was acceptable for F class shooting @ 600/1000. Thanks for your reply.

1. He did not suggest 43.5. He suggested you work up to it.

2. How do you know 43.5 is over pressure? Just cause QL says so?

3. If your 41.xx load is not showing any pressure signs, you can start working up from there. QL is not 100% absolute truth and correct beyond all other things.
 
I've started to focus less on speed and more on the actual performance of the load.

I shoot a .308 with 168 or 175 gr bullets. Neither of these are speed demons with my most accurate loads.

As long as the MV gives me a round that stays supersonic at 1,000 yards I don't really pay too much attention. What good does it do to have a fast round, thinking it will "cut the wind" if the rifle barrel tosses it a different direction every time you fire. It's more important that the load speed fall into a good harmonic "node".

As for results, Monday I was able to coax a nice compact 1/2" group out of my 175 gr load (2525 fps avg)-------at 300 yards.

Aren't calm days wonderful 8)
 
at 2525 with a 175gr bullet you are not above 1.2 mach @1000. This is based on a 50 degree day with 40% humidity and a barometric pressure of 29.92 and at an altitude of 800'.
 
amlevin said:
I've started to focus less on speed and more on the actual performance of the load.

I shoot a .308 with 168 or 175 gr bullets. Neither of these are speed demons with my most accurate loads.

As long as the MV gives me a round that stays supersonic at 1,000 yards I don't really pay too much attention. What good does it do to have a fast round, thinking it will "cut the wind" if the rifle barrel tosses it a different direction every time you fire. It's more important that the load speed fall into a good harmonic "node".

As for results, Monday I was able to coax a nice compact 1/2" group out of my 175 gr load (2525 fps avg)-------at 300 yards.



Aren't calm days wonderful 8)

Thank you sir for reading and answering my post as intended. I know how to "work up" an accurate load and was not suggesting QL is the definitive word on reloading. I merely asked exactly what you answered and that is what speed is acceptable to you in relation to accuracy for what you are shooting (600/1000) Experts opinions are like noses.........
 
ar15topgun said:
at 2525 with a 175gr bullet you are not above 1.2 mach @1000. This is based on a 50 degree day with 40% humidity and a barometric pressure of 29.92 and at an altitude of 800'.

Okay, then how about 140 grain bullet @ 2550 on an80 degree day with 50% humidity and a BP of 30.00 and an altitude of 75'? Not being sarcastic just would like to know where and how you get your calculations?
 
Okay, then how about 140 grain bullet @ 2550 on an80 degree day with 50% humidity and a BP of 30.00 and an altitude of 75'?

Your 140 Hybrid (G7 BC 0.317) is calculated to be doing 1,802 fps at 600; 1,373 fps at 1,000. (Berger Bullets ballistics data and free Point Mass Ballistics Solver 2.0 program.) That's around 1.2 MACH at 1,000, adequate but not startling. Perhaps more to the point is firstly wind conditions and the resulting drift if you miss a change, and secondly what competition you face in whatever discipline you'll use the rifle in.

10 mph @ 90-deg wind is calculated at 3.75-MOA at 600; 7.2-MOA at 1,000.

If you're up against somebody shooting a .284W, .284 Shehane or 7mm short magnum with a Berger 180gn VLD at 2,950 fps (not excessive for some of this cartridge list in F Class) his or her bullet performance runs as follows:

2,179 fps / 2.8-MOA drift at 600
1,734 fps / 5.2-MOA drift at 1,000

You'll know what sort of wind changes you might get on the range(s) you shoot over, the 10 mph / 90-deg just being a useful convention to allow comparisons, and a 7 or 5-MOA wind change between shots would certainly be exceptional on the ranges I shoot over, a complete miss by a large margin if not taken as the frames I shoot on are around 2.5-MOA from target centre to the edge.

As for your original point re getting the accuracy and velocity relationship optimised, that is a big issue for F/TR shooters like myself who use .308 Win at 1,000yd and occasionally beyond. The answer is - being simplistic / unrealistic at times - we want it all, small groups, high MVs and small muzzle velocity spreads. Generally, we do get it these days and there are F/TR shooters whose external ballistics today are not that far short of what a good 6.5 did in the early days of F-Class. That is the 155.5gn Berger at getting on for 3,100 fps; 185gn bullets at 2,800 fps + and 210gn or heavier bullets at 2,600 fps +, sometimes nudging 2,700 fps. The price is barrel life of course, since you get nothing for nothing.

My philosophy for 1,000yd has always been to go for the best grouping combination I can get at an acceptable MV and spread. That may mean losing out on another 100 fps, but it's a poor trade off if the faster load doesn't group or throws every 5th shot out as a flier. If the load won't group well, your developing match plot will almost certainly become misleading as a shot off to one side losing you a point may be due to wind, or maybe not if the group is running at an MOA or more, likewise poor elevation control makes it very difficult to know if you've got your sight correctly adjusted and whether you should be changing it or not.

On the other hand, a rifle / load that groups into a quarter-MOA or better may be severely constrained, even useless, if the terminal velocities are around the speed of sound and/or the opposition shoots rings round you because they just stay within the 10-ring and able to 'shoot through the wind', while the same conditions lose you a point every time you miss a minor change. In our GB F Class League rounds (ie the UK) we judge how hard the conditions really were after the event by the gap between the top F Class and F/TR scores. If they're fairly benign, the gap is close and the top F/TR shooter would have a top 3-5 place in 'Open' (even would have won an event outright in one of last year's rounds!); if there is a big gap, you know it was really was hard and you weren't just making excuses!

FWIW, 2,550 fps seems a bit on the low side for a .260 Rem with 30gn barrel. How is it throated - a long throat can make a large difference to the MV and in QuickLOAD if not input (via COAL). Likewise have you measured your case capacity using the water overflow method and input it into QL using actual fired case capacity? The program's default capacities are sometimes well out and if smaller than you're actually running will give an over-high pressure estimate.

It's all a lot less critical ballistically at 600yd, but the extra wind drift can still lose you points to competitors whose ammunition groups then same as yours, but is going that bit quicker / moving that bit less in the wind.
 
6brmrshtr said:
With all due respect, I am not limiting myself to anything by asking a question about speed v accuracy. I merely used the QL program to stay within pressure limits for this powder. The load you suggest at 43.5 is way over pressure and I respectfully refuse to abuse my equipment running those risks.

I was also looking for any other shooters using this powder who may have experienced similar variances in speed or had opinions about speed v accuracy. Everything I have seen says this powder is a good powder for the 260. I am looking for optimum speed (?), Barrel time and powder burn for my equipment.

The 260 is a new chambering for me and I was trying to find what velocity was acceptable for F class shooting @ 600/1000. Thanks for your reply.

You pretty much stated that that you were limiting yourself to 41.2gr of 4350 when you gave that spread in your earlier post.

2550FPS for a .260 out of a 30 inch barrel is pitiful. I have seen enough .260 Rem shooters to know that they drive their highly accurate bullets a LOT faster than that.

The .260 Rem's parent case is the .308 Winchester, a cartridge I use to launch 180gr bullets at about 2850FPS from a 32 inch barrel. I should think for the same pressures you should be at 3000FPS or above, at which point the high BC of the 6.5 bullet will shine brightly as explained by Laurie.
 
Mr Laurie:
Thank you for your comprehensive and very informative response. I am familiar with everything that you said in relation to speed and accuracy. I have imputed all data into QL using the H2O capacity of my fired brass along with accurate OAL so if I had to question something other that the powder it would be the Chrono. It is a CED Millennium with infrared screens that has been pretty accurate up until yesterday. I was curious if anyone else had similar experience with Accurate 4350 data being different from QL to the degree I found. I am trying to track down the culprit if there is one in this particular twenty rounds.
Nothing I said in my post indicated I was not going to test any further; just curious about those results.
I went to the range today shooting 41.5 to 42.1 grains of ACC 4350 @ 200 getting a 1/2 MOA group with 2809 AV from the last group of five shots. The variable from yesterday was I had to use 140 JLK's as I was out of Berger Hybrids and usually JLK's like to be jammed v off the lands, so I am encouraged to continue testing with this powder and the Hybrids when I get some in from Powder Valley.
 
6brmrshtr said:
ar15topgun said:
at 2525 with a 175gr bullet you are not above 1.2 mach @1000. This is based on a 50 degree day with 40% humidity and a barometric pressure of 29.92 and at an altitude of 800'.

Okay, then how about 140 grain bullet @ 2550 on an80 degree day with 50% humidity and a BP of 30.00 and an altitude of 75'? Not being sarcastic just would like to know where and how you get your calculations?
Jbm calculations on the world wide web. By the way just trying to help not being snobbish but to each their own. Have fun shooting.
 
I was curious if anyone else had similar experience with Accurate 4350 data being different from QL to the degree I found.

How does the actual fill-ratio of powder in the case fit what QuickLOAD predicts? I know AA-4350 is longish grain so bulks up more for a given weight than H or IMR versions, but I've also noticed that the program seems to overestimate the F/R with some powders, and this has a BIG effect on the PMax it produces.

I find it normally does this for Viht N150 and so the actual usable loads are often higher than is apparently safely possible. The flip side of the coin is that QuickLOAD overestimates the pressures and MVs. If I was so minded, I suppose I'd go and change the bulk density value in the database.
 
I believe it is pretty consistent with the program at around 100-103% F/R. That was one of the reasons I wanted to look at this powder. My values today were about 100 FPS off (lower than) the program's predicted velocities. I have not adjusted the burn rate to see if that coincides with yesterday and today's results.
Which do you prefer in F/R full or near capicity or less?
 
Which do you prefer in F/R full or near capicity or less?

I'm a purist and like to be as close to 100% as possible. Having said that I've loaded many, many cartridges over the years that gave great results with values of 90% or lower - and if it ain't broke don't try and fix it. I think there is still a convention, received wisdom, that 85% is the minimum desirable in rifle cartridges.
 
I don't understand why you would handicap yourself with such a bad balance in ballistics.

You're NOT shooting heaviest for cal, high-BC bullets, because they are the most accurate of bullets(they are not). You shoot them to reduce the cost of uncontrollable variables(like mis-holdoffs in wind that Laurie mentioned), having far greater significance to distant results than accuracy 'potential'.

A winning system will always represent a winning ballistic balance.
Would a 6PPC, being more 'accurate' than LR cartridges up close, represent any sense of a winning balance for 1kyd?
No it wouldn't(unless shooting in a tunnel). But a relatively sloppy 1/2moa gun approaching a better ballistic balance is competitive for 1kyd.
THEY win frequently.

I don't have anything against an accurate 260. But IMO, if you're planning to shoot against anything like Laurie mentioned(7mms), you might as well abandon that load your so proud of.
Just forget about it
 
mikecr said:
I don't understand why you would handicap yourself with such a bad balance in ballistics.

You're NOT shooting heaviest for cal, high-BC bullets, because they are the most accurate of bullets(they are not). You shoot them to reduce the cost of uncontrollable variables(like mis-holdoffs in wind that Laurie mentioned), having far greater significance to distant results than accuracy 'potential'.

A winning system will always represent a winning ballistic balance.
Would a 6PPC, being more 'accurate' than LR cartridges up close, represent any sense of a winning balance for 1kyd?
No it wouldn't(unless shooting in a tunnel). But a relatively sloppy 1/2moa gun approaching a better ballistic balance is competitive for 1kyd.
THEY win frequently.

I don't have anything against an accurate 260. But IMO, if you're planning to shoot against anything like Laurie mentioned(7mms), you might as well abandon that load your so proud of.
Just forget about it

Wow thank you for trashing my selection of firearm to shoot in competition. I guess I could start a big argument on your opinion of what everyone on the planet should shoot (whatever you say it is) but will only say thanks for your post it did nothing to answer my original question.
 
Mr Laurie:
Thanks again for your sage advice. I have read many of your posts and they are always concise and informative giving less experienced shooters like myself guidance and support for our inquiries on reloading and shooting in general. I wish some others with diverse opinions could learn the art of how to provide information with out the acrimony or conceit.
 

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