fouling shots
- Thread starter jaybray
- Start date
Sorry but I have another question. I posted awhile ago about early high pressure signs with this particular rifle. What is happening is I have a good accuracy node at 27.8 and 28 grains of varget with 107 match kings jumped 15 thosandths which shoot half inch and smaller 5 shot groups at 200 yards which im happy with. This was today in -15 degree Celsius. I could not find another node until I hit 29.2 grains and then the groups tightened real good and I wanted to try 29.4 but at 29.2 had hard bolt lift and I have blown primers at 29.5 in this rifle. Is there any way to get around these pressure signs such as changing seating depth or a different bullet?
I even tried the 95 berger and blew 2 primers and had sticky bolt lift at 29.5 so i will have to just live with the lower accuracy node till this barrel wears out. I have been using the 28 grain load with the 107 match kings for 750 rounds and according to the honady guage the throat has not even moved since after the first 50 rounds i fired from new. So that is one good point of using the lower node i guess. The groups did tighten up from -25 to -15 or so for whatever reason.
Blaster-37
1000 Yard
Interesting fouling theories. There is some good advice here.
Without getting into this too deep, and it does get deep with some well kept secrets, I will quote Tony Boyer at Reno many years ago. As he walked by the my bench, while I was cleaning, he said "Careful Greg or you will clean all the good groups out of it". At first I thought he was joking, he was not. This advice, along with other information on this, had a huge effect, possibly the biggest effect, on the size of my groups.
There are many factors that weigh in on weather to clean and how much. To listen to each barrel, load and conditions is much smarter than cleaning as per speculation from others.
Bottom line, it is what works for you and your choices will be reflected on the target. It is what it is.
Greg
Without getting into this too deep, and it does get deep with some well kept secrets, I will quote Tony Boyer at Reno many years ago. As he walked by the my bench, while I was cleaning, he said "Careful Greg or you will clean all the good groups out of it". At first I thought he was joking, he was not. This advice, along with other information on this, had a huge effect, possibly the biggest effect, on the size of my groups.
There are many factors that weigh in on weather to clean and how much. To listen to each barrel, load and conditions is much smarter than cleaning as per speculation from others.
Bottom line, it is what works for you and your choices will be reflected on the target. It is what it is.
Greg
I have a different take on this fouling thing.
When I started in 1000 BR the bbl I was using was a fricking chimney!!! It was the worst fouling tube in the world. Firecracked, carbon.....just all bad BUT, it shot awesome and settled in after only 1 shot. After the first it was a hammer.
Many barrels later...they all cleaned up better than that first tube....took 2, maybe 3 shots for the vertical to go away.
My last 4 comp tubes....all Kriegers....are absolutely amazing. Break in took two or three shots TOTAL. After that it was simply a matter of pushing a few wet patches (butches). No brushing. I always check with a bit of Sweets, but the patches came out snow white. i simply Iosso'ed them every 150 rounds or so to prevent carbon. Now, these tubes took 6 to 10 rounds to settle in before the vertical went away.
My theory, and maybe mine alone, is that it takes those last four tubes longer to settle in because they simply didn't foul as quickly or as much. They just didn't settle in a quickly. The middle bunch fouled quicker than the last four, but not as fast as that first tube.
So, my theory is, the easiest tubes to clean take longer to settle in.
Anyone have any thoughts on my ramblings?
As far as "flitz"...never heard of it.
When I started in 1000 BR the bbl I was using was a fricking chimney!!! It was the worst fouling tube in the world. Firecracked, carbon.....just all bad BUT, it shot awesome and settled in after only 1 shot. After the first it was a hammer.
Many barrels later...they all cleaned up better than that first tube....took 2, maybe 3 shots for the vertical to go away.
My last 4 comp tubes....all Kriegers....are absolutely amazing. Break in took two or three shots TOTAL. After that it was simply a matter of pushing a few wet patches (butches). No brushing. I always check with a bit of Sweets, but the patches came out snow white. i simply Iosso'ed them every 150 rounds or so to prevent carbon. Now, these tubes took 6 to 10 rounds to settle in before the vertical went away.
My theory, and maybe mine alone, is that it takes those last four tubes longer to settle in because they simply didn't foul as quickly or as much. They just didn't settle in a quickly. The middle bunch fouled quicker than the last four, but not as fast as that first tube.
So, my theory is, the easiest tubes to clean take longer to settle in.
Anyone have any thoughts on my ramblings?
As far as "flitz"...never heard of it.
4xforfun you're seeing just what I've seen.
Your better barrels clean up so well, like I clean mine regardless, that prefouling is especially beneficial.
Flitz is a polish. Best bores don't come polished, but lapped to an optimum surface profile. It's the reason better barrels clean up so well.
Your better barrels clean up so well, like I clean mine regardless, that prefouling is especially beneficial.
Flitz is a polish. Best bores don't come polished, but lapped to an optimum surface profile. It's the reason better barrels clean up so well.
I thought when you first started you shot a 300 Ackley and reloader 25, which is a lot more powder and very dirty. Now i believe you shoot a 6 Dasher and 300 WSM, which have smaller loads of powder and burn pretty clean. That could be some of the difference you are seeing. I use to shoot the 308 Baer case with Re 25 and it was very dirty and a lot of firecracking. Switched to H4831 and had a lot less fouling. The throat on my Baer moved forward a lot. Like 20 to 30 thous. a season. Now my 300 WSM only moves about a thous. a season and burns a lot cleaner. Same for the Dasher. Two to 3 seasons of shooting 1000 yard BR and see almost no firecracking with the WSM.4xforfun said:
DennisH
Life Time NRA member
You can get your barrel "too" clean. I know especially on smaller calibers - 223, 6mm, etc., You will have to shoot several shots before you get your groups back if you super clean your barrel.
It's also a sign of barrel wear. After cleaning, you take all the copper etc., out of the barrel and then your shooting 5" groups scratching your head. As you are shooting your rifle, the groups close before your eyes sometimes taking 30 shots to re-foul your barrel.
In my earlier years this happened to me with my 223. I had the barrel so clean, not a spec of dirt would come out with the last patch. I would shot the rifle and sometimes would have over an 8 inch group. After putting more than 30 rounds through the barrel, I noticed the groups closing up until I had my 1/2 moa (100 yards) back, which was my norm with this 223. I always used my same load, never changing. Nobody could explain this.
A well know gun builder was at the range and overheard us when this was happening one time. It was getting very discouraging. He told me to bring it to his shop so he could look at it.
I did, and he looked at the barrel with his scope. He told me to change the barrel as it's was one of the worst wore out barrels he has ever seen.
I was new to the sport, but I took his advice and put a well known heavy varmint barrel on my rifle. He happened to have it in stock! I really thought I was being taken, but he guaranteed it and said he would take he barrel back if my groups didn't improve. I couldn't beat this, plus I had a few friends tell me to go ahead with the suggestion. I will have to throw this in . . . He told me several times he knew what he was doing. I am sure it was my facial expressions showing doubt about his diagnosis.
I took the rifle with the new barrel to the range. I cleaned the new barrel with a mop to make sure no trash was in it and ran a few patches through it. Patches were clean. My first group 5 shots with the new barrel was less than 1", from there on I shot less than 1/2 moa groups almost anytime I wanted still using my load I had used for 18 months. Oh, I cleaned the new barrel after 5 shots and I didn't clean it the rest of the day. I was so $$$ tight, I didn't even use virgin brass, most of the brass had 8 rounds or more shot with them.
Now, I clean my barrels, but not as good as I use to. I have shot 160 rounds down several barrels before I noticed my groups started opening up. I then clean the barrel taking about 5 minutes to do so and I am back to my normal groups. I usually shoot one fouler shot down the tube after cleaning and still do to this day.
Several on this board know me and my rifles and I am sure they wouldn't mind backing up the accuracy of my rifles. Infact, I learned most of my techniques from them, LOL.
One other well know secret is to use colloidal graphite oil down your tube after cleaning. It doesn't take much and you have to be carefull with this product. You can go to any NAPA store and buy "Loc-Ease" in a spray can. It contains the colloidal graphite. Get the equivalent of three drops on a patch and burnish this patch through your barrel taking your time. When finished, run one clean patch using a jag down the tube. Try it and you be the judge. There is several articles out there concerning this product.
Too much of this product will cause an over pressure situation during the first few shoots. It's almost like the reverse happens after cleaning your barrel. So if you know you are around max pressure, be very careful with this graphite. I believe Gre-Tan sells it in a 4oz bottle.
Well, I am wide awake now. Hopefully this will help someone down the line one day.
Dennis
It's also a sign of barrel wear. After cleaning, you take all the copper etc., out of the barrel and then your shooting 5" groups scratching your head. As you are shooting your rifle, the groups close before your eyes sometimes taking 30 shots to re-foul your barrel.
In my earlier years this happened to me with my 223. I had the barrel so clean, not a spec of dirt would come out with the last patch. I would shot the rifle and sometimes would have over an 8 inch group. After putting more than 30 rounds through the barrel, I noticed the groups closing up until I had my 1/2 moa (100 yards) back, which was my norm with this 223. I always used my same load, never changing. Nobody could explain this.
A well know gun builder was at the range and overheard us when this was happening one time. It was getting very discouraging. He told me to bring it to his shop so he could look at it.
I did, and he looked at the barrel with his scope. He told me to change the barrel as it's was one of the worst wore out barrels he has ever seen.
I was new to the sport, but I took his advice and put a well known heavy varmint barrel on my rifle. He happened to have it in stock! I really thought I was being taken, but he guaranteed it and said he would take he barrel back if my groups didn't improve. I couldn't beat this, plus I had a few friends tell me to go ahead with the suggestion. I will have to throw this in . . . He told me several times he knew what he was doing. I am sure it was my facial expressions showing doubt about his diagnosis.
I took the rifle with the new barrel to the range. I cleaned the new barrel with a mop to make sure no trash was in it and ran a few patches through it. Patches were clean. My first group 5 shots with the new barrel was less than 1", from there on I shot less than 1/2 moa groups almost anytime I wanted still using my load I had used for 18 months. Oh, I cleaned the new barrel after 5 shots and I didn't clean it the rest of the day. I was so $$$ tight, I didn't even use virgin brass, most of the brass had 8 rounds or more shot with them.
Now, I clean my barrels, but not as good as I use to. I have shot 160 rounds down several barrels before I noticed my groups started opening up. I then clean the barrel taking about 5 minutes to do so and I am back to my normal groups. I usually shoot one fouler shot down the tube after cleaning and still do to this day.
Several on this board know me and my rifles and I am sure they wouldn't mind backing up the accuracy of my rifles. Infact, I learned most of my techniques from them, LOL.
One other well know secret is to use colloidal graphite oil down your tube after cleaning. It doesn't take much and you have to be carefull with this product. You can go to any NAPA store and buy "Loc-Ease" in a spray can. It contains the colloidal graphite. Get the equivalent of three drops on a patch and burnish this patch through your barrel taking your time. When finished, run one clean patch using a jag down the tube. Try it and you be the judge. There is several articles out there concerning this product.
Too much of this product will cause an over pressure situation during the first few shoots. It's almost like the reverse happens after cleaning your barrel. So if you know you are around max pressure, be very careful with this graphite. I believe Gre-Tan sells it in a 4oz bottle.
Well, I am wide awake now. Hopefully this will help someone down the line one day.
Dennis
This is very similar to what happens with my rifle after i clean. Two inch or larger 5 shot groups until around 20 rounds then they shrink to half inch or so. I guess i should have clued in regarding my cleaning routine. After 25 rounds i would patch like crazy and then use a brass brush, after all this a dry patch would come out completely white. I am going to shoot till accuracy wears off from now on.
jaybray said:
I would never run a brass brush thru the barrel...never..With the solvents out there now days....All that is needed is a bore mop and or patchs....If it is shooting good,WHY clean it....Why..?I never clean until the accuracy looks like it is going south-east-west,where ever...
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