I feel that there are always risks with seating plungers in precision floating alignment bodies. In my case, it was the Redding competition die that belled & was replaced at no cost to me, but I notice that the plunger in the image has much more robust sides than they did 10 or so years back. On the other hand, my Forster which has a more generous tolerance is runing fine.
Foster die problem
- Thread starter tisme
- Start date
Had the same problem this weekend, Whidden Seaters on the way
On the Forster seating die and as johnkelly mentioned probably all of the floating sleeve precision dies there are some quirks with them. Tonight I found that by using very light and very, very shallow strokes that the die will perform better but it is very tedious and still sticks occasionally. I think there may be another crack in the cup but I can't see it. When they work they really work, very consistent seating depth consistency within a thousandth of an inch on most but i am still getting terrible run out with it. I think i will call the since they have not responded to my email asking them to look at the assembly.
BoydAllen
Gold $$ Contributor
One thing that die manufacturers seem to be stuck on is the idea that the bore that the seater stem rides in needs to be near bullet diameter. If the tip of the bullet makes it into the recess in the end of the stem, and the base of the bullet sits in a chamfer at the end of the case neck, the diameter of the hole that the stem rides in becomes irrelevant. As long as the case is held concentric with the CL of the stem , and the cavity is machined concentric with it the bullet will go into the case neck straight.
Wanted to post my experiences in this thread as they are directly related both in the past as well as in recent times.
I purchased the Forster Micrometer Seater Dies for both 223 as well as 308 that had the stainless looking stems. Both began belling pretty quickly and left marks on the bullets. I contacted Forster and they suggested buying their new heat-treated (black) stems, which I did (no discounts offered). I have since loaded very few 308s, so I can't comment about that, but the 223 has still had issues.
The stem still left marks on the bullet where it contacted, even on empty brass that is being loaded with 2 thousandths of tension, but I also noticed another issue that was posted about elsewhere in the forum where the die will scratch the bullets near the O.D.
I again reached out to Forster and they were very quick to respond back and forth. They pretty much confirmed a lot of what was said in here (little tolerance for concentricity, thin walls on stem), but offered no real solutions for me.
I tried polishing the sleeve as well as the stem using some Permatex Valve Grinding Compound on a bore mop for the sleeve and on a 77gr SMK for the stem like was written about HERE then loaded the round in the picture below into another empty case with .222 internal diameter (2 thou tension). No luck.
Wondering if another brand deals with these issues any better. I have an issue even with the marks left by the stem because I feel that they might change the aerodynamics of the bullet. Why pay for expensive bullets if the seating die messes with them?
Anyone have any suggestions on brands? Does Whidden/Redding deal with this any better or do I have to resort to hand-seaters like Sinclair/L.E. Wilson?
Really don't like buying premium and getting something with issues.
I purchased the Forster Micrometer Seater Dies for both 223 as well as 308 that had the stainless looking stems. Both began belling pretty quickly and left marks on the bullets. I contacted Forster and they suggested buying their new heat-treated (black) stems, which I did (no discounts offered). I have since loaded very few 308s, so I can't comment about that, but the 223 has still had issues.
The stem still left marks on the bullet where it contacted, even on empty brass that is being loaded with 2 thousandths of tension, but I also noticed another issue that was posted about elsewhere in the forum where the die will scratch the bullets near the O.D.
I again reached out to Forster and they were very quick to respond back and forth. They pretty much confirmed a lot of what was said in here (little tolerance for concentricity, thin walls on stem), but offered no real solutions for me.
I tried polishing the sleeve as well as the stem using some Permatex Valve Grinding Compound on a bore mop for the sleeve and on a 77gr SMK for the stem like was written about HERE then loaded the round in the picture below into another empty case with .222 internal diameter (2 thou tension). No luck.
Wondering if another brand deals with these issues any better. I have an issue even with the marks left by the stem because I feel that they might change the aerodynamics of the bullet. Why pay for expensive bullets if the seating die messes with them?
Anyone have any suggestions on brands? Does Whidden/Redding deal with this any better or do I have to resort to hand-seaters like Sinclair/L.E. Wilson?
Really don't like buying premium and getting something with issues.
Wanted to post my experiences in this thread as they are directly related both in the past as well as in recent times.
I purchased the Forster Micrometer Seater Dies for both 223 as well as 308 that had the stainless looking stems. Both began belling pretty quickly and left marks on the bullets. I contacted Forster and they suggested buying their new heat-treated (black) stems, which I did (no discounts offered). I have since loaded very few 308s, so I can't comment about that, but the 223 has still had issues.
The stem still left marks on the bullet where it contacted, even on empty brass that is being loaded with 2 thousandths of tension, but I also noticed another issue that was posted about elsewhere in the forum where the die will scratch the bullets near the O.D.
I again reached out to Forster and they were very quick to respond back and forth. They pretty much confirmed a lot of what was said in here (little tolerance for concentricity, thin walls on stem), but offered no real solutions for me.
I tried polishing the sleeve as well as the stem using some Permatex Valve Grinding Compound on a bore mop for the sleeve and on a 77gr SMK for the stem like was written about HERE then loaded the round in the picture below into another empty case with .222 internal diameter (2 thou tension). No luck.
Wondering if another brand deals with these issues any better. I have an issue even with the marks left by the stem because I feel that they might change the aerodynamics of the bullet. Why pay for expensive bullets if the seating die messes with them?
Anyone have any suggestions on brands? Does Whidden/Redding deal with this any better or do I have to resort to hand-seaters like Sinclair/L.E. Wilson?
Really don't like buying premium and getting something with issues.
Looks like additional polishing might take out the faint mark from the seater.
What is causing the scrapes on the bullet just above the neck?
That was the issue. After polishing, that scraping mostly went away. That was the thread I was referring to in my post.
I contacted John Whidden and he told me that they use delrin inserts on the stem to avoid this issue and haven't had anyone complain of it expanding through use. Can anyone with Whidden dies show me what the internal parts look like or have any comments? I haven't been able to find any pictures or videos that go over the seating die.
What I have found with both redding and forster dies (and probably applies to all dies with VLD seater stems in this case) when using VLD bullets and especially Hornady ELD bullets in smaller calibers is that I need to expand the neck more than a full length sizing die and conventional expander ball usually does. The issue seems to be that most of the low drag bullets are much softer than "normal" bullets, very tender coatings and the shape is given to cause a natural pinch point in the seating stem cup.I was having all kinds of trouble When seating .223 in new or used brass that had been full length resized, with the bullet sticking in the seating stem cup or hanging up in the seating die and creating the infamous ring marks and gouging the bullets. All this even though I resized and chamfered and deburred multiple times thinking I had not done it correctly and polishing the seating cup with a bullet and some 220 lapping compound, changed my die set up etc... All this was no help except the polishing seemed to lessen the gouging and marring of the bullet. I finally had a chance to neck size and seat some fire formed brass and found that I was not having any of those issues. Through shear frustration I finally ordered an "oversized" .2240 ball for my forster FL die and ran through some of the brass I was having the problems with. All of the issues disappeared and zero marking of the bullet. I did a push test on the seated bullet and no problem I had to smack it to move it. I ordered a RCBS .2240 mandrel ex pander die Just so I don't have to rely on the full length die for this process.
I used both the regular Lee FL Die as well as the Redding Bushing FL Die. So in both cases, they were FL sized. I would test it by just doing a neck size with a Lee Collet Die, but I already sent the Forster die to Forster to have them take a look at it. Should get there Monday. Will keep you updated.
So you are seating with 0 thou neck tension (in theory), but are getting enough tension to not have issues or are you expanding to 0.224" then necking back down?
I should have mentioned that this is all full length resized, lake city 5.56 once fired brass. The type and condition of the brass does make a difference. I don't have a measuring device for the interior of the case neck but i am guessing that by running the .2240 expander ball and the brass spring back it is probably at .2230 or close to that. So with my .224 bullets is should be about .001 neck tension but that is only a guess. If you are going to try this method you need to get an inside diameter measuring tool to make sure you have the proper neck tension that you are trying to achieve. The reason for the post with was to point out that some low drag bullets seem to require special attention with some seater dies.
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