Or excessive runout with bushing dies. Barlow
Forster FL dies too long and how to fix.
- Thread starter dstoenner
- Start date
Dusty Stevens
Shiner
I consider a custom die the best option. Second best is whidden made from your cases. Then the best of the off the shelf dies are redding.
The best answer is the dies are junk
Your need custom dies because you have a custom head space
Or you can take junk dies a remove a few thousand off the lingth and make them custom
You just have the wrong kind
Your need custom dies because you have a custom head space
Or you can take junk dies a remove a few thousand off the lingth and make them custom
You just have the wrong kind
Moving forward perhaps call their tech line for clarification.
Personally I use a different company
I'm 68 and have been reloading for over 47 years and only once had a rifle that the die would not push the shoulder back far enough. And this rifle was made in Czechoslovakia from a WWII German Mauser action in .270 Winchester with extremely tight headspace. And all I had to do was lap .003 off the top of the shell holder. And I never had a problem with any off the shelf factory rifle and the average die can push the shoulder back far more than needed.
At SavageShooters.com you can always find someone who changed his barrel and used a brand new cartridge case and put two layers of scotch tape on the base of the case to set the headspace. Their next posting is "Help my die won't bump my shoulder back far enough".
In my opinion you see the OP problem on custom chambered rifles far more and I do not blame it on junk dies.
Chambers and dies vary in size and have plus and minus manufacturing tolerances. And once in a blue moon you have a minus chamber and a plus die.
Bottom line, its cheaper and faster to lap a shell holder to increase shoulder bump. And then measure and check to make sure the shell holder is level. And Whidden custom dies has the warning below at their website. So why does Whidden make shorter custom dies, I wonder if they got tired of dies being sent back and having to grind the dies shorter for short chambered rifles.
WARNING
Failure to adhere with below warning could result in damaged and unsafe brass!
The Whidden Gunworks Sizer Die is engineered with a shorter overall length (OAL) compared to other manufactures of sizer dies. This means you can set the shoulder back further if desired based on your specific application. This die is not intended to be used while bottomed out or screwed flush with the shell plate. Doing so will result in the shoulder being set back too far, possibly rendering the casing unusable. During initial setup screw the die flush with the shell plate then back off 1-1 1⁄2 turns, NOTE: Each full turn of the Sizer is approx. .071” so it does not have to be turned very far to make a noticeable adjustment. Instructions are included with each die set and can also be found at www.whiddengunworks.com-reloading-dies-instructions.
At SavageShooters.com you can always find someone who changed his barrel and used a brand new cartridge case and put two layers of scotch tape on the base of the case to set the headspace. Their next posting is "Help my die won't bump my shoulder back far enough".
In my opinion you see the OP problem on custom chambered rifles far more and I do not blame it on junk dies.
Chambers and dies vary in size and have plus and minus manufacturing tolerances. And once in a blue moon you have a minus chamber and a plus die.
Bottom line, its cheaper and faster to lap a shell holder to increase shoulder bump. And then measure and check to make sure the shell holder is level. And Whidden custom dies has the warning below at their website. So why does Whidden make shorter custom dies, I wonder if they got tired of dies being sent back and having to grind the dies shorter for short chambered rifles.
WARNING
Failure to adhere with below warning could result in damaged and unsafe brass!
The Whidden Gunworks Sizer Die is engineered with a shorter overall length (OAL) compared to other manufactures of sizer dies. This means you can set the shoulder back further if desired based on your specific application. This die is not intended to be used while bottomed out or screwed flush with the shell plate. Doing so will result in the shoulder being set back too far, possibly rendering the casing unusable. During initial setup screw the die flush with the shell plate then back off 1-1 1⁄2 turns, NOTE: Each full turn of the Sizer is approx. .071” so it does not have to be turned very far to make a noticeable adjustment. Instructions are included with each die set and can also be found at www.whiddengunworks.com-reloading-dies-instructions.
dgeesaman
Gold $$ Contributor
Sure have
I can't bump the shoulder back on my 6 Dasher Brass after fireforming and the cases are difficult to chamber so they def need it. But IIRC I was able to run the brass through the die after being expanded to 6.5mm and come out with a case that didn't have enough resistance when closing the bolt... which seems to indicate that it is capable of bumping the shoulder. So I have no idea what is going on, unless the taper of the die does not match the taper of the shoulder. (This is a Forster FL Die). I have been having too much fun with my 223 so I have not gotten around to sending it off to Forster to have material removed.
Are there any gunsmiths that offer custom dies along with their chambering services to ensure a perfect fit in the dies? Or do people usually order a chamber reamer and a die reamer for this kind of thing?
Are there any gunsmiths that offer custom dies along with their chambering services to ensure a perfect fit in the dies? Or do people usually order a chamber reamer and a die reamer for this kind of thing?
Not specifically. They did say they run off the SAMMI minimum spec. This is why they need honing and probably why the offer that service. This happened when I got a die for a buddy to get him started reloading. with the ram all the way up, we got about a 1/2 thousand bump. I sent them a fired case and the the dies and now were good.
I have a Forster honed FL die that has been great. No complaints and thousands of rounds sized. I don't shoot the accuracy of some of the guys here, but I think they are good dies for the price.
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so could this result in not properly sizing the bottom most section of the case. Its like the problem in the opposite direction...
I'm not sure what you are asking, but in most cases the problem comes from a chambers headspace set at or below the GO gauge. And even removing .010 from the top of a shell holder is not going to effect case diameter that much if any at all.
Below Forster .308 dies cut for three different type chambers. And with all my dies and factory rifles I use the Redding competition shell holders. Meaning my Redding, Forster, RCBS and Lee dies all will push the case shoulder back more than needed.
Below Forster .308 dies cut for three different type chambers. And with all my dies and factory rifles I use the Redding competition shell holders. Meaning my Redding, Forster, RCBS and Lee dies all will push the case shoulder back more than needed.
dstoenner
Silver $$ Contributor
I have owned Hornady, Lee, RCBS and Redding in various calibers of 223, 6BR, 260, and 308. I have never had one that wouldn't set the shoulder back to at least .003 below the GO gauge. Some more.
That was why I invested in the Redding competition shell holders because it lets you customize the set back on a per die basis and still raise the ram to where the shell holder just touches the bottom of the case. I don't like screwing out a sizing die in order to adjust setback because then you have a little more variability in dimensions from soft brass the hard brass. If the shell holder just touches the bottom of the die then you have constant volume. If one brand of brass is harder and doesn't take the set or springs back you can change the competition shell holder to adjust for that brand and have a different shell holder for a different brand, just like we have bushings for different cases.
For me trimming down the shell holder was a non starter because it would then precluded the use of competition shell holders.
The whole reason I got this Forster die to start out with was I also wanted a die that essentially had the bushing built into it. My Whidden FL bushing die would generally yield about 50 to 60% 1 mil or less runout at the neck with the rest .002 and a .003 or so. When I took that distribution of sized cases and ran them through the Forster die that was hone to the same .265 neck as my bushing in the Whidden, I came out with 88 cases 1 mil or less and only 7 that were 2 mil. That is a HUGE increase of the most accurate cases. From other experiments I have run, I would normally get about 90% of the 1 mil cases load at 1 mil runout with the ones that didn't generally be 2 mil.
My goal is to load in a group of cases and pick the best 60 cases as my for record shots in my F-Class matches. With the Whidden I get about 60 cases at 1 mil and then only get 54 if i get the 90% loaded number. Now with the Forster I am getting about 75 or more loaded rounds at 1 mil so now I get all my rounds for record, my 6 sighters and still have 6 great rounds as back-up. I know I am going to the line with winning ammo, now to just have winning wind reading skills
I think Whidden dies are as good or better than any of the others. To me the weak link in the sizing chain was the bushing. I had a bad Redding bushing that I didn't know was bad till I had sized and loaded a ~100 rounds that were coming out with terrible runout. That was when I traced it back to one bushing I had changed to when I sized that batch of brass that I had never used before. The custom honed Forster die is, for me, the complete solution I need at a lot less cost than a custom die would be.
I was just trying to raise awareness about the issue I ran into and how I fixed in order to be usable in the way I reload. People can take it or leave it.
David
That was why I invested in the Redding competition shell holders because it lets you customize the set back on a per die basis and still raise the ram to where the shell holder just touches the bottom of the case. I don't like screwing out a sizing die in order to adjust setback because then you have a little more variability in dimensions from soft brass the hard brass. If the shell holder just touches the bottom of the die then you have constant volume. If one brand of brass is harder and doesn't take the set or springs back you can change the competition shell holder to adjust for that brand and have a different shell holder for a different brand, just like we have bushings for different cases.
For me trimming down the shell holder was a non starter because it would then precluded the use of competition shell holders.
The whole reason I got this Forster die to start out with was I also wanted a die that essentially had the bushing built into it. My Whidden FL bushing die would generally yield about 50 to 60% 1 mil or less runout at the neck with the rest .002 and a .003 or so. When I took that distribution of sized cases and ran them through the Forster die that was hone to the same .265 neck as my bushing in the Whidden, I came out with 88 cases 1 mil or less and only 7 that were 2 mil. That is a HUGE increase of the most accurate cases. From other experiments I have run, I would normally get about 90% of the 1 mil cases load at 1 mil runout with the ones that didn't generally be 2 mil.
My goal is to load in a group of cases and pick the best 60 cases as my for record shots in my F-Class matches. With the Whidden I get about 60 cases at 1 mil and then only get 54 if i get the 90% loaded number. Now with the Forster I am getting about 75 or more loaded rounds at 1 mil so now I get all my rounds for record, my 6 sighters and still have 6 great rounds as back-up. I know I am going to the line with winning ammo, now to just have winning wind reading skills
I think Whidden dies are as good or better than any of the others. To me the weak link in the sizing chain was the bushing. I had a bad Redding bushing that I didn't know was bad till I had sized and loaded a ~100 rounds that were coming out with terrible runout. That was when I traced it back to one bushing I had changed to when I sized that batch of brass that I had never used before. The custom honed Forster die is, for me, the complete solution I need at a lot less cost than a custom die would be.
I was just trying to raise awareness about the issue I ran into and how I fixed in order to be usable in the way I reload. People can take it or leave it.
David
Before this thread "dies"... pun intended. I wanted to add that after stating that all my Forster FL sizers are capable of pushing the shoulder back way too far... I decided to open a brand new set of 6.5 creedmoor dies and check those out.
This sizer will provide the shoulder bump needed with a std shellholder, but not "alot" more as I previously stated about my other ( read older ) Forster dies. The difference is probably just a shorter ( factory ) chamber, but so far it looks like I could only go perhaps 0.003 to 0.004 past my bump when slightly camming over. This is only a sample of one, but it makes me wonder if Forster purposely makes them this way now to prevent oversizing? Maybe I'm overthinking it, but I definitely see a difference between my older ones and this one. The older ones will bump this far and probably beyond without touching the shellholder.
This sizer will provide the shoulder bump needed with a std shellholder, but not "alot" more as I previously stated about my other ( read older ) Forster dies. The difference is probably just a shorter ( factory ) chamber, but so far it looks like I could only go perhaps 0.003 to 0.004 past my bump when slightly camming over. This is only a sample of one, but it makes me wonder if Forster purposely makes them this way now to prevent oversizing? Maybe I'm overthinking it, but I definitely see a difference between my older ones and this one. The older ones will bump this far and probably beyond without touching the shellholder.
Dusty Stevens
Shiner
The next one you get may not bump at all, or it may bump .050- you just never know
I have had the same problem with my 6.5X47 Forster Dies - would not compress or bump back brass - my solution was to trim down the shell holder using a diamond wheel in my Dremel. The result was a shell holder that allowed the die to bump back the case shoulder but the shell holder looked sort of "distressed". My next method was to take a #20 X 1 1/2 inch, flat head Phillips machine screw and trim head width and height so it fit well below the top of the shell holder upon inserting it through the shell holder - I did this with the Dremel & diamond wheel. The PH machine screw with reduced head was then inserted into the shell holder and locked into place with a 1/4 inch nut - turned in tight with a channel lock plier on screw and crescent wrench on nut. The assembly was then chucked into my cordless and run at the highest RPM while holding the top of the shell holder against a diamond knife sharpening stone - use minimum force, don't stall out. After 3-4 minutes of grinding I reduced the height of the shell holder by .009 inches - just enough for a happy fit inside my rifle chamber with enough "bump". Get a coarse diamond knife sharpening stone.
I don't have a drill press, lathe, carbide cutting tools and surface grinder and don't want to grind down a die because that die might be squash down brass excessively for any other 6.5X47 rifle if set down to contact unaltered shell holder.
All my other Forster dies - .204R, .22-.250, .243, 6mm Rem fit beautiful - bump just right. No ground down shortened shell holder needed for these.
Should the axis of the rotary grinding stone (in drill press) not be parallel with the die axis the bottom of the die will slanted. This is no big deal if not excessive. Having the surface of the shell holder being slightly (.001-.002) slanted is also no big deal. I adjust that excessive long die (high point) so it barely contacts the ground down shell holder.
I don't have a drill press, lathe, carbide cutting tools and surface grinder and don't want to grind down a die because that die might be squash down brass excessively for any other 6.5X47 rifle if set down to contact unaltered shell holder.
All my other Forster dies - .204R, .22-.250, .243, 6mm Rem fit beautiful - bump just right. No ground down shortened shell holder needed for these.
Should the axis of the rotary grinding stone (in drill press) not be parallel with the die axis the bottom of the die will slanted. This is no big deal if not excessive. Having the surface of the shell holder being slightly (.001-.002) slanted is also no big deal. I adjust that excessive long die (high point) so it barely contacts the ground down shell holder.
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Sounds like a lot of work
I just shorten the die
Got the same results
I just shorten the die
Got the same results
As a retired machinist, I have the skills, and I still maintain my shop. Just smaller. I do have a mill, lathe, and surface grinder, among other things.
When necessary, I will always modify a shell holder before I modify a die.
Shell holders are cheap, dies are not. I have Redding sets for every bottle neck cartridge that I load, but there are times when I need/want a little more "bump". That's when the shell holder goes to the surface grinder. It is important to me to keep things square and true. I also get much better results with my neck honed Forster dies than I did with my Redding bushing dies.
When necessary, I will always modify a shell holder before I modify a die.
Shell holders are cheap, dies are not. I have Redding sets for every bottle neck cartridge that I load, but there are times when I need/want a little more "bump". That's when the shell holder goes to the surface grinder. It is important to me to keep things square and true. I also get much better results with my neck honed Forster dies than I did with my Redding bushing dies.
I also like "square and true" but as an old guy with few simple tools I can accept a shell holder having a tiny amount of surface variation (high point contacts first) to adjust a sizing die for headspace is one of them.
Possibly, my friendly gunsmith cut my 6.5X47 L chamber short for some reason and my Forster die would work for thousands of other 6.5X47 Lapua rifles.
After spending $37 for a die and another $30 or so for shipment back and forth to Forster for honing I am not about to do an amateur job on grinding down the bottom of the die.
I have many Lee #2 shell holders.
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I use and recommend Forster dies.
As to whether a die pushes a shoulder back xxx amount is neither here nor there..........you simply measure your cases before and after sizing and adjust the die accordingly.
I have had more problems with Redding dies not sizing short chambers against any other brand. I have sent back all of ONE RCBS Die set in 30 years of handloading.
Yes, I use these for hunting rifles ‘cause they just work and make straight cases when you deliberately cam-over slightly, if that means an altered shell holder, then so be it, skimming .010” off the top of one takes a few minutes and is forever left with THAT die set.
Redding dies often need polishing in my experience and wrinkle case bodies if not done to a high sheen.
Let alone not sizing enough.
Even their ‘custom’ series dies need work. My 375 Weatherby dies were so rough that only half the case would go in before they would stick and then bend the rim..........and yes, I was using enough lube.
Cheers.
As to whether a die pushes a shoulder back xxx amount is neither here nor there..........you simply measure your cases before and after sizing and adjust the die accordingly.
I have had more problems with Redding dies not sizing short chambers against any other brand. I have sent back all of ONE RCBS Die set in 30 years of handloading.
Yes, I use these for hunting rifles ‘cause they just work and make straight cases when you deliberately cam-over slightly, if that means an altered shell holder, then so be it, skimming .010” off the top of one takes a few minutes and is forever left with THAT die set.
Redding dies often need polishing in my experience and wrinkle case bodies if not done to a high sheen.
Let alone not sizing enough.
Even their ‘custom’ series dies need work. My 375 Weatherby dies were so rough that only half the case would go in before they would stick and then bend the rim..........and yes, I was using enough lube.
Cheers.
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