Forming Vartarg, would this work?

[jwv2001]

I've made Fireball cases from 223. I used a Fireball sizing die and just took extremely small steps until the case bottomed out in the die. Cut the case with a hacksaw, chamfered the neck inside and out, loaded them up and shot them. No problem, except I wouldn't want to make a career out of it. Plus, when I first bought my XP100 (at least 20 years ago) I bought 500 rnds of new brass. It still sits on the shelf, untouched. If I had it to over again, I'd take the route CZkid described.
I see the 20 Vartarg as the next center fire for me.

 

[ricco1949]

I am contemplating a Vartarg. I am wondering if this would work for forming brass from 223.

1. Buy a cheap (Lee) 221FB sizing die and remove the guts. Run well lubed brass until I have my shoulder in place.
2. Chop saw most of the excess neck.
3. Trim to length
4. Size in a Vartarg die.

BR:

If using military 5.56 brass to reform to 20 VT:

1. Lee 221 FB is not a good choice for the 1st step. The brass flows into the vent hole when moving the shoulder and shears off leaving an unsightly, and probably a weakened, fold/ depression. I use a 221 Redding body die for this step.

I do however use a Lee 221 die that I modified into a Dillion 1500 trim die for cutoff step in Dillon 650.

2. You will need to to turn necks as the resulting 20 caliber necks are .014-.015 +/- thick.

 

[Bat Rastard]

Thanks all.
Very useful info.

 

[JSH]

I have corresponded with several folks in the thread on the subject.
If you just like tinkering and making brass, that is fine.
I myself got tired of looking all over creation for 221 parent brass, then at $1 a piece. I needed/wanted about 1-1500.
My findings, others MMV. Virgin brass is not a must, I came to prefer it as I found it eliminated some issues.
You have to anneal.
Neck turn, just needs to be done once. I will not recommend reaming at all unless a very large amount needs to be removed, even question it then.
I found Starline 222 to suit my needs and wishes better than 223.

Simple easy way out, there are a few folks here that will suffer all the pain so you don’t have to at a very reasonable price. (Even power neck turning and trimming is a chore after about 100)

 

[Ackman]

It wouldn't work. The process I have developed takes about 12-14 total steps, to make my final brass. And, you'll need to anneal the case as a point in the process to getting to final neck outside diameter. And will need to turn the necks as well, as the neck comes from the area in the body of the original case, and is too thick to chamber.

This photo shows the main steps, between the 3rd and 4th sizing I anneal the case, so it'll not form folds or dents, etc in the neck sides or shoulder. After you cut to length you'll need to turn the necks to thin them to about .0120" - 0125" thickness.

View attachment 1632661

ONLY..... 12-14 steps???

 

[TheCZKid]

ONLY..... 12-14 steps???

Yes, turns out it's 14... YMMV
20 VarTarg brass from 223 (rev. 2/2025)

Convert LC 5.56 brass: Clean, Swage &, Primer Pocket Uniform, flash-hole deburr, before sizing.

• Form cases with Redding Form Die #1 (90101)
• Next, use Redding 20 VT Type S bushing die, with guts removed, necks it down further.
• Anneal neck and shoulder to dull red, to soften neck & shoulder.
• Size with Redding 20 VT body die, to get final case formed with Base to Shoulder 1.086” or less.
• Use mini chop saw, and trim neck off, length 1.410” or slightly longer.
• Trim neck to bring case length to 1.390” to 1.395”.
• Chamfer and deburr the neck end.
• Expand neck interior with Redding Type S die 20 Cal. expander ball .2025” NO bushing for Hornady
• Or – Expand with K&M 20 Cal expander mandrel, to use K&M Neck Turner
• Neck- turn wall to .0120” - .0125” thickness.
• Chamfer outside of neck again, polish with 0000 steel wool.
• Size necks with 225 bushing (to precede neck expansion sizing).
• Expand necks with K&M -.002 = .2025” (same as Redding ball) or -.003 = .2015” tension mandrel.
• Lube inside of necks with Neolube #2 for consistent bullet tension.

 

[Bat Rastard]

I have corresponded with several folks in the thread on the subject.
If you just like tinkering and making brass, that is fine.
I myself got tired of looking all over creation for 221 parent brass, then at $1 a piece. I needed/wanted about 1-1500.
My findings, others MMV. Virgin brass is not a must, I came to prefer it as I found it eliminated some issues.
You have to anneal.
Neck turn, just needs to be done once. I will not recommend reaming at all unless a very large amount needs to be removed, even question it then.
I found Starline 222 to suit my needs and wishes better than 223.

Simple easy way out, there are a few folks here that will suffer all the pain so you don’t have to at a very reasonable price. (Even power neck turning and trimming is a chore after about 100)

Are you making Vartarg from 222?

 

[L.Sherm]

Are you making Vartarg from 222?

You can, just as easy as with 223

 

[Bat Rastard]

You can, just as easy as with 223

I wonder if the 222 would be an easier starting point. It has less of the body length to push.

 

[L.Sherm]

I wonder if the 222 would be an easier starting point. It has less of the body length to push.

If you do it like CZ kid and I do it won't matter 222 or 223. I tried one time to do it in 1 step it just crushed the body of the brass.

 

[K9TXS]

I like my 20 VT and it's very accurate. However, if I was to build another VT, it would be very simple. I would just make a 20-221. The only thing the VT gives you is a different shoulder angle. A 20-221 is a simple neck down similar to the 20 Practical.

 

[JSH]

Yes I used 222 brass to go to 221. A bit less neck turning and it ended up closer weight wise to 221 factory brass, ot enough to argue over.

I spent the few $ on a 3D printed jig on eBay that used the HF mini chop saw. That took a lot of the work out of it.

Those of us that go through o this length to make brass, should probably seek professional help, lol.
I no longer worry about 221 or 222 brass supplies.

 

[L.Sherm]

no longer worry about 221 or 222 brass supplies

This might be the biggest benefit.

 

[bobcat93]

As a fireball fanatic myself, if i may offer one little bit of a friendly suggestion.
(Listen to your predecessors)
.it will greatly reduce the pile of crushed brass and goofy cases..

 

[Gabe22BR]

All this yak about forming..

Makes myself want buy some basic Starline 223 brass & make some more 20-221AI brass… I only gots 92pc for this CZ…

 

[JSH]

All this yak about forming..

Makes myself want buy some basic Starline 223 brass & make some more 20-221AI brass… I only gots 92pc for this CZ…

I actually had the same thoughts. I was afraid it may have made some more work, going to say 30 then 7 or 6.5, then to 22. Along with possibly having to anneal along there some place.

One other thing I thought of that I didn’t see mentioned, I FL sized and chamfered all of my cases, no matter what case, even virgin. If there is a dent, wrinkle or nick in the case mouth, it will follow that void all the way to the shoulder. In my findings I found it to reduce foul language a fair bit.

I see some guys speaking of the Bullberry dies, I need to go look and see if they still offer them.

 

[wkndwarrior]

I've formed somewhere between 1000 and 1500 fireball cases in the past few years and you'll definitely enjoy the experience more with form dies. Yes you can do it without, but you'll prob have some frustration built in. If they're not on the shelf, I can almost guarantee that bullberry won't make them for you right now.

To add to what czkid has provided , I usually run 1x 223 through a small base die then cut them down in a chop saw as my first steps. I forgo annealing until I'm ready to expand the necks for turning.

Good luck!

 

[Bill K]

I guess every wildcatter is, WTH?

Maybe we are, but that is part of the fun and all in working with wildcats and turning out the brass needed. I enjoy it, others might not. All a personal choice.
Some just make it harder than neccessary in brass forming or are too lazy to do it.