CatShooter
L.Sherm said:
The 20 Practical is not a "So called" wildcat, it is a "real" wildcat.
forming 20 vartarg from 223 brass HELP
- Thread starter greg8012
- Start date
The 20 Practical is not a "So called" wildcat, it is a "real" wildcat.
L.Sherm
Silver $$ Contributor
I guess what i mean't by so-called was there really is no fire-forming or makeing your own brass, the 20 Prac. is no harder to load for than your 270,30-06 etc. I have one caliber that I use to make my own brass, fireform etc that is what i consider a 100% wildcat, guess if you can't buy the ammo of the sheif technically it is a "wildcat"
What twist barrel are you guys using for the 20vt?
Rick in Oregon
Gold $$ Contributor
queen_stick said:
I consider the 20VT a 32gr bullet cartridge due to case capacity. Some 20VT owners like to shoot the 39/40's, but with the reduced speed, you might as well be shooting a factory 222.
Most 20VT's thrive on the 32gr bullets, giving around 3,800~fps, including mine.....and for this application, the 12-twist is perfect. I built an 11-twist 204R just to shoot the 39/40's, and in doing so I was not disappointed one bit.
thanks guys.
good thread on the 20vt... renewed my interest in this little guy
good thread on the 20vt... renewed my interest in this little guy
Forum Boss
Administrator
DogBuster said:
Every year AccurateShooter.com requests this, every year the answer has been "we have other more critical priorities". I would love to have Lapua Fireball brass and maybe build a rifle for it....
Dvldawg said:I formed 500 pcs. of Winchester 223 using Redding case forming dies.. Case Forming #1 (90101) and then the Form & Trim die (83101) as an extra step I then ran the brass through a 221 Fireball FL die w/ no decapping rod assembly and the the last one was the 20 VarTarg Die. You will also need an Extended Shellholder #10 (11510) to use with the form dies.. And I do not believe for one second that Remington produces the 221 Fireball brass for Nosler, if that were true they probably manufacture the Lapua brass too
Sort of.....
Their Varmageddon ammunition uses Nosler brass, and their regular Nosler ammunition uses the RP brass, as of June of this year. I visited the plant after meeting one of Bend's finest, and bought 5 boxes of the 222 Varmaggedon ammo for my Sako Varmint, both to shoot and have once fired reloadable brass. The ammo in my gun shoots good enough I am going to buy another 200 rounds and may never reload for her, she is a 1963 model with a Unertl 10x scope, way too fragile for my Beldings shooting, but a very cool rifle.
SORRY, I WAS REPLYING TO THE RP vs Nosler BRASS, NOT THE "QUOTED LINE ABOVE"
Allen
The key to making this work is heavily polishing the inside of the dies with Flitz. Various size bore mops and shotgun patches on an electric drill work well for this. Then just use a normal light coating of imperial wax when sizing. We are making a large reduction in size of the brass in two steps. The surface has to be very smooth. I use two dies:
221 body die Redding #75101
17 Mach IV #1 Form die Redding #90504
Trimmed with mini cut-off saw
Chamfer & Debur
Expanded with 20 cal Sinclair expander
Trimmed with Wilson case trimmer
Neck turn
Chamfer & Debur
Anneal
Works every time.
pdog
221 body die Redding #75101
17 Mach IV #1 Form die Redding #90504
Trimmed with mini cut-off saw
Chamfer & Debur
Expanded with 20 cal Sinclair expander
Trimmed with Wilson case trimmer
Neck turn
Chamfer & Debur
Anneal
Works every time.
pdog
If you try the 39's or 40's @ 3500 I think you will like them. Better in the wind and more energy than the 32's. My vartarg's are both true 12 twist and I haven't had any problem's. Way better than a 222 or 223.
MFG_BOP said:
While I don't have my 20VT barrel yet I did receive my Redding 20VT FL bushing die. I have been forming 221 fireball out of 223 brass with good results. For 20VT I first run 223 cases through 221 fireball die without the guts. Chop the long neck off. Camfer and debur. Then I anneal. I then run cases through a K&M 20 cal. expander mandrel. Then trim to 1.395 and chamfer/debur again. Then I neck turn for a neck thickness of about 12 thousands. I then ran a few cases through my Redding 20VT FL die with .226 bushing and all looks promising but I am going to wait for my barrel before I do anything else as I will need to make sure the neck and head spacing will fit the new barrel. Seems I won't be needing any forming dies at this point. I hope some of this info might be useful.
Thanks. I tried exactly what you done but the long necks or get split or folded or came out like banana shaped. I just ordered a form/trim (#83101) from Sinclair and lets see if I have good luck next time. Cheers
pacificman said:MFG_BOP said:
While I don't have my 20VT barrel yet I did receive my Redding 20VT FL bushing die. I have been forming 221 fireball out of 223 brass with good results. For 20VT I first run 223 cases through 221 fireball die without the guts. Chop the long neck off. Camfer and debur. Then I anneal. I then run cases through a K&M 20 cal. expander mandrel. Then trim to 1.395 and chamfer/debur again. Then I neck turn for a neck thickness of about 12 thousands. I then ran a few cases through my Redding 20VT FL die with .226 bushing and all looks promising but I am going to wait for my barrel before I do anything else as I will need to make sure the neck and head spacing will fit the new barrel. Seems I won't be needing any forming dies at this point. I hope some of this info might be useful.
Hi guys, I cracked that. I was having enormous difficult to run 223 cases thru a 20VT S type die. The secret is not doing it in one pass. What I do is leave a small gap between shell holder and the die (which has been polished), insert a case and when you start feeling some resistance, back the ram out, give the brass a turn, 45 degrees or so, again into the die, go 1 to 2 mm further, back it out and so on. The most import thing is the initial process. When you get half way done, you can use more force and go even further down the die. In the end, for one piece of 223, I backed the ram out some 14 times and the long necks came out straight as. No need for forming dies or anything. I noticed that if you over anneal the brass, it bends over itself. I used ADI brass 2X fired (I prefer ADI's because they have .070" flash holes BTW).
Guys, that was my experience. You may have different ones. If you guys want I can make an Youtube video, but I got an awkward portuguese accent :-X
Cheers
Guys, that was my experience. You may have different ones. If you guys want I can make an Youtube video, but I got an awkward portuguese accent :-X
Cheers
17VLD
Gold $$ Contributor
R-P .221 brass is not that bad,don't get me wrong I'm very glad for the Nosler,Norma,and Lapua offerings in .221 and can't wait to get some,just saying if you have some R-P give it a try,you might be suprised.
I have seen some bad stuff too but I feel the extra work to make 20VT from .223 may be a bit more work than is needed by most people.My best shot to date on a p.d. with my Cooper 20VT is 542 yards using
R-P brass and the 32 V-Max.The 20VT is one great cartridge that is a ton of fun to shoot,my point is get out and shoot don't sit at home forming cases all day.
Matt
I have seen some bad stuff too but I feel the extra work to make 20VT from .223 may be a bit more work than is needed by most people.My best shot to date on a p.d. with my Cooper 20VT is 542 yards using
R-P brass and the 32 V-Max.The 20VT is one great cartridge that is a ton of fun to shoot,my point is get out and shoot don't sit at home forming cases all day.
Matt
17VLD... I feel the extra work to make 20VT from .223 may be a bit more work than is needed by most people.
17VLD...I think your right on this but there are a few crazy's (me) witch seem to enjoy tinkering in the reloading room! Yep is a lot of work to form all that brass but for some strange reason I enjoy it especially when loading in winter time. Also seems I won't need to buy any brass as I have bunches of .223 to work with. Oh...that's a heck of a shot at over 500 yards with 20VT. Gets me excited to get mine up and running for sure. A lot of the fun with this cartridge has been everything leading up to the final outcome of finally owning a 20VT. As a matter of fact I have not heard one thing negative about the 20VT! Getting harder and harder to wait on my barrel for my 20VT. ;D
17VLD...I think your right on this but there are a few crazy's (me) witch seem to enjoy tinkering in the reloading room! Yep is a lot of work to form all that brass but for some strange reason I enjoy it especially when loading in winter time. Also seems I won't need to buy any brass as I have bunches of .223 to work with. Oh...that's a heck of a shot at over 500 yards with 20VT. Gets me excited to get mine up and running for sure. A lot of the fun with this cartridge has been everything leading up to the final outcome of finally owning a 20VT. As a matter of fact I have not heard one thing negative about the 20VT! Getting harder and harder to wait on my barrel for my 20VT. ;D
7mm looney
Silver $$ Contributor
Rick inCheck over on saubier.com, as a poster there that has long experience forming VT cases from 223 posted the complete procedure, along with very good photos of each stage of forming.
This fellow uses LC brass of recent mfg, and produces cases that can operate at slightly higher pressures (higher velocity), and last up to 20+ loading so far to date. I'm using some of his brass in my 20VT, and it's still going strong after 12 loadings.
Normally I just use R-P 221FB brass, form to 20VT with the Redding 3-die set, and have never had a case crumble, crush or fail in any way. Spendy brass yes, but no tearing out my hair making it either.
7mm looney
Silver $$ Contributor
Rick in Oregon would like to speak to you by phone about brass for 20 vt and you plans to build one. I'm a geezer and prefer phone to posts when it's convenient for you I'm in west linn Oregon 503-6360187 or 5039530586 any time before 9pm thanks
My process requires the Redding die set for forming 221 Rem from either 222 or 223 and a K&M neck turner and a bunch of more standard stuff -
1) Start with as-delivered cases, and chamfer inside of flash-holes enough to break the edge with Lyman tool
2) Make primer pockets uniform in depth with White Tail tool
3) For the remainder of the steps, do a “first piece qualification” with some “range brass” to dial-in dimensions and build confidence. Also, I followed with a “pre-production run” of 10 of the good Lapua cases before “going into production.”
4) “Wet” case with case forming wax. I think “wet” best describes the amount of case forming wax to use – you don’t want to form dimples, and you don’t want to stick a case in the die.
5) Go through first die in the Redding forming set with “standard” shell holder
6) Repeat with second die in the Redding forming set, but use the “extended shell holder” sold by Redding.
7) The top of the trim die will be above the black press insert and NOT as shown in figure 3. With this set-up, a fine-toothed (32/inch) hack saw will nicely take off the excess, and a flat file will dress the mouth sufficiently for the purpose.
8) Chamfer and de-burr
9) “Wet” cases again with forming wax
10) Run through FL die with “standard” shell holder – any size of .20 caliber neck bushing will do.
11) Trim to at least 0.004” under length, but do all to the same length in hand-cranked Forster trimmer
12) Chamfer and de-burr again.
13) Expand necks on K&M expander mandrel
14) Set up K&M neck turner to turn to 0.013” thick and run-out at top of shoulder
15) Turn necks, using case forming wax or moly-grease on mandrel and neck itself
16) Tumble in untreated corn-cob media to remove all lube
17) Load with 32- or 35-grain bullets and medium charge for fire-forming.
18) Fire-form. Actually, one could fire-form on varmints or during load development. Cases will be very close to final dimension.
1) Start with as-delivered cases, and chamfer inside of flash-holes enough to break the edge with Lyman tool
2) Make primer pockets uniform in depth with White Tail tool
3) For the remainder of the steps, do a “first piece qualification” with some “range brass” to dial-in dimensions and build confidence. Also, I followed with a “pre-production run” of 10 of the good Lapua cases before “going into production.”
4) “Wet” case with case forming wax. I think “wet” best describes the amount of case forming wax to use – you don’t want to form dimples, and you don’t want to stick a case in the die.
5) Go through first die in the Redding forming set with “standard” shell holder
6) Repeat with second die in the Redding forming set, but use the “extended shell holder” sold by Redding.
7) The top of the trim die will be above the black press insert and NOT as shown in figure 3. With this set-up, a fine-toothed (32/inch) hack saw will nicely take off the excess, and a flat file will dress the mouth sufficiently for the purpose.
8) Chamfer and de-burr
9) “Wet” cases again with forming wax
10) Run through FL die with “standard” shell holder – any size of .20 caliber neck bushing will do.
11) Trim to at least 0.004” under length, but do all to the same length in hand-cranked Forster trimmer
12) Chamfer and de-burr again.
13) Expand necks on K&M expander mandrel
14) Set up K&M neck turner to turn to 0.013” thick and run-out at top of shoulder
15) Turn necks, using case forming wax or moly-grease on mandrel and neck itself
16) Tumble in untreated corn-cob media to remove all lube
17) Load with 32- or 35-grain bullets and medium charge for fire-forming.
18) Fire-form. Actually, one could fire-form on varmints or during load development. Cases will be very close to final dimension.
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