Forester FL die bump shoulder
- Thread starter potatoe
- Start date
She sure will but the easiest way to get minimal bump is a set of Redding comp shellholders. Its not easy to adjust shoulder bump with the locknut. If i recall correctly one thousandth is 1/72 of a turn on the die. Try that one ;D
potatoe
Silver $$ Contributor
Thanks Addict. I was asking on behalf of my pop's who is getting a nice little die set from Forester for his new .221 fireball. We mainly play with fl bushing dies and wanted to make sure that a standard would do job as well. Both of us have well oversized our fair share of cases, good thing we get sighters. . .Thanks again 
BoydAllen
Gold $$ Contributor
I disagree with the proposition that adjusting a FL die for the desired bump by working with the die's position within a lock ring is a big deal. It just requires a little practice, and a small amount of patience. I will admit that I have a friend that thinks of this as a chore, but it doesn't phase me at all.
I agree with BoydAllen. I put an index mark on the lockring and one to match on the die threads. Turning them about 1/4" apart is good for about. 004". I follow up by checking with a head space measuring tool. Once you've done this some its quick ez and pretty accurate. I use either a magic marker or tiny dab of white car touch up paint.
kraky said:
I agree as well. On my dies with a "flat" at the top of the die body I use a wrench and then visualize a clock face when turning the wrench. Makes it easier to make small changes than to merely loosen lock nut then turn die with hand. The wrench handle makes for a long pointer and it's easier to see the change.
I have found the new LnL bushing kit on my Rock Chucker to be great for tasks like this. Set and forget. No more having to unscrew a die, screw in another, then spend 20 minutes checking and readjusting.
Gotta agree with Boyd. Been doing it that way for years.
I think it gets a little easier if you replace the normal Redding lock nut with the Hornady type you can buy seperately.
Easier to adjust and they seem to be ground flatter.
Good machineing/engineering helps when your dealing with .001"
I think it gets a little easier if you replace the normal Redding lock nut with the Hornady type you can buy seperately.
Easier to adjust and they seem to be ground flatter.
Good machineing/engineering helps when your dealing with .001"
broncman
No idea how rough your Redding is but,,,, The inside of any FL type die should not be smooth for the same reason handlapped barrels are not polished to mirror brightness. There is such a thing as to much of a good thing.
If its marring your brass then it is indeed too rough. Redding will replace it no questions asked.
No idea how rough your Redding is but,,,, The inside of any FL type die should not be smooth for the same reason handlapped barrels are not polished to mirror brightness. There is such a thing as to much of a good thing.
If its marring your brass then it is indeed too rough. Redding will replace it no questions asked.
Boyd
I was referring to handlapped bores, not chambers.
Bores are not handlapped to fine finishes because that would create extra friction (coppering)
I believe most barrel makers that lap stop in the 600-800 grit range. If they're barrels were better highly polished they'd lap down to 1400 grit.
Barrels "thoroughly" handlapped down to 1400 grit would copper foul like crazy. 100% surface contact between two opposing forces is not always desirable.
As for a FL die arguments could be made both ways. 100% surface contact is not desirable yet a highly polished rifle chamber with lubed cartridge shows extremely low coefficients. They are not the same animal. Brass expands in a chamber and grips the pores/roughness of a chamber upon firing. Brass in a die does not expand but of course an overly rough die will create resistance.
A fl die ground correctly (not polished ultra smooth) will retain sizing lube in those pores giving both less surface area and lube that does not need to be displaced by a perfect fit between two surface areas. Displaced lubricant is not doing its job its just wasted and creating pockets whenever trapped.
I feel the same way about highly polished expander balls. I've done a few in the past and found it actually aggravates what ever problem I was trying to solve.
If no one agrees with my concept, thats cool too.
I was referring to handlapped bores, not chambers.
Bores are not handlapped to fine finishes because that would create extra friction (coppering)
I believe most barrel makers that lap stop in the 600-800 grit range. If they're barrels were better highly polished they'd lap down to 1400 grit.
Barrels "thoroughly" handlapped down to 1400 grit would copper foul like crazy. 100% surface contact between two opposing forces is not always desirable.
As for a FL die arguments could be made both ways. 100% surface contact is not desirable yet a highly polished rifle chamber with lubed cartridge shows extremely low coefficients. They are not the same animal. Brass expands in a chamber and grips the pores/roughness of a chamber upon firing. Brass in a die does not expand but of course an overly rough die will create resistance.
A fl die ground correctly (not polished ultra smooth) will retain sizing lube in those pores giving both less surface area and lube that does not need to be displaced by a perfect fit between two surface areas. Displaced lubricant is not doing its job its just wasted and creating pockets whenever trapped.
I feel the same way about highly polished expander balls. I've done a few in the past and found it actually aggravates what ever problem I was trying to solve.
If no one agrees with my concept, thats cool too.
BoydAllen
Gold $$ Contributor
I am with you 100% on the rifle bores, and on the FL dies, I guess that I would have to say that I have never seen a mirror finish on one, and that I have heard of improvement in the force that it takes to size, by polishing. Of course improving the finish is one thing and a mirror finish would be another. Your mentioning expander balls made me smile, for short contact surface balls, I have seen some improvement from polishing and a little reshaping, but once I made the mistake of polishing a Lee expander that has a really long full diameter surface, so that the entire neck in on it at once.....biiiig mistake. We had serious suction. Most of my current reloading is for a couple of 6PPCs, and I do my sizing with a bit of a collector's item, a Harrell's Vari-Base die, that does not do anyting to the top half of case bodies, except bump the shoulder, It has the usual bushing for the neck, and there are interchangeable, screw in base bushings that come in increments of .001. After breaking in the die by doing some sizing with die wax, I was able to switch to not using any lube, unless you count that left over from cleaning the powder fouling off necks with 0000. The press effort is highter, but I have never stuck a case, and the shoulder bump is very uniform. Testing the die, without a bushing, sized brass is about as straight as is came out of the chamber. My base diameter reduction from sizing is something like .0005. If I stay on top of my bump setting (which depends on how work hardened a given batch of brass is), case growth is very slow, even at pressures that would make a liability lawyer smile at the prospects for new business.
jo191145 said:
So how do you explain hammer rifled barrels that have grooves so smooth you almost get blinded when shining a light down them. I have one that doesn't show copper until it's had 100 or more rounds through it and even then a couple of patches with Sweet's takes it right out.
amlevin
You can trust me on this one thing. I'm not the guy who's gonna explain nothin ;D
Whatever spark of creative intelligence for hypothosize I once possesed, if any, is dwindling rapidy. ;D
Your question would be better answered by Lilja, Kreiger, Bartlien etc etc.
I do recall that at one time one of the winning barrelmakers had the explanation on thier site.
Who knows, maybe they're wrong,
I also seem to recall your of a scientific bent.
If so you should know that the naked eye does not accurately display surface structures well. Think microscopic.
No offense but I can shine a flashlight down a sewer pipe and blind myself on the other end. ;D
Thanks for the chuckle tho
You can trust me on this one thing. I'm not the guy who's gonna explain nothin ;D
Whatever spark of creative intelligence for hypothosize I once possesed, if any, is dwindling rapidy. ;D
Your question would be better answered by Lilja, Kreiger, Bartlien etc etc.
I do recall that at one time one of the winning barrelmakers had the explanation on thier site.
Who knows, maybe they're wrong,
I also seem to recall your of a scientific bent.
If so you should know that the naked eye does not accurately display surface structures well. Think microscopic.
No offense but I can shine a flashlight down a sewer pipe and blind myself on the other end. ;D
Thanks for the chuckle tho
BoydAllen
Gold $$ Contributor
amlevin,
A little time spent with a bore scope will answer all your questions. That barrel that looks so perfect as you look down it will look a lot different.
It is predictable and somewhat amusing, when someone first gets a bore scope, that he starts worrying about the imperfections that he could not see before, forgetting the barrels accuracy record, and the degree of satisfaction that he may have had with it before he went into information overload. They are a very useful tool, but it takes more than a little experience to know what to be concerned about and what you can disregard.
A friend, who does his own barreling work, was having a problem with jacket fouling in a barrel that was chambered with a large 7mm wildcat. He has a bore scope (so he knew exactly how much of a problem he had). After trying, and failing to break the barrel in he decided that he would relap it, using a poured lead lap. I think that his first thought was to reduce the degree of constriction as he approached the muzzle, that he could feel by slugging the barrel. It seemed excessive, as if the barrel maker had put in too much choke when he lapped it. This he managed to do, but he still had the jacket fouling. At some point I mentioned to him that I thought that some barrel makers lapped no finer than 320 grit, and that getting a barrel too smooth inside could cause fouling problems. He did some testing of this, lapping to a finer, and then coarser surface finish, and what I had said was confirmed by actual test. Later when he replaced the barrel with a cut rifled barrel from one of the very top manufacturers (which solved his problem) he found that the interior finish was consistent with what he had produced with 320 grit.
A little time spent with a bore scope will answer all your questions. That barrel that looks so perfect as you look down it will look a lot different.
It is predictable and somewhat amusing, when someone first gets a bore scope, that he starts worrying about the imperfections that he could not see before, forgetting the barrels accuracy record, and the degree of satisfaction that he may have had with it before he went into information overload. They are a very useful tool, but it takes more than a little experience to know what to be concerned about and what you can disregard.
A friend, who does his own barreling work, was having a problem with jacket fouling in a barrel that was chambered with a large 7mm wildcat. He has a bore scope (so he knew exactly how much of a problem he had). After trying, and failing to break the barrel in he decided that he would relap it, using a poured lead lap. I think that his first thought was to reduce the degree of constriction as he approached the muzzle, that he could feel by slugging the barrel. It seemed excessive, as if the barrel maker had put in too much choke when he lapped it. This he managed to do, but he still had the jacket fouling. At some point I mentioned to him that I thought that some barrel makers lapped no finer than 320 grit, and that getting a barrel too smooth inside could cause fouling problems. He did some testing of this, lapping to a finer, and then coarser surface finish, and what I had said was confirmed by actual test. Later when he replaced the barrel with a cut rifled barrel from one of the very top manufacturers (which solved his problem) he found that the interior finish was consistent with what he had produced with 320 grit.
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