Flute or Not Flute
- Thread starter Chfcemerson
- Start date
Why?
www.riflebarrels.com/fluting/
www.riflebarrels.com/fluting/faq/ Does fluting cause stress in a barrel?
IBS 2017 1000-Yard Nationals Light Gun Overall, plus Light Gun Score Agg was won by Mike Gaizauskas. His rifle was wearing a fluted barrel
www.riflebarrels.com/fluting/faq/ Does fluting cause stress in a barrel?
IBS 2017 1000-Yard Nationals Light Gun Overall, plus Light Gun Score Agg was won by Mike Gaizauskas. His rifle was wearing a fluted barrel
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Well you want a fluted barrel and you have a Krieger so there should be no problem. Were it me I'd talk to Krieger about it. They will likely do you a good job at a competitive price. They are nice people and aim to please.
At the first Shilen swap meet in Ennis Texas, Ed Shilen gave a talk and was asked about fluted barrels. He said that they had done a lot of testing and discovered that it would make them tend to walk as they heated up. He also said that if you wanted a fluted barrel you should go to a cut rifling barrel maker like Krieger.
I hold no malice toward a fluted barrel and can't justify the extra cost for me but they do look good and if that is what you want, I'd go for it. All the barrel makers that I know of and have dealt with wish to please the customer and I would rely on their wisdom concerning their product.
Joe
At the first Shilen swap meet in Ennis Texas, Ed Shilen gave a talk and was asked about fluted barrels. He said that they had done a lot of testing and discovered that it would make them tend to walk as they heated up. He also said that if you wanted a fluted barrel you should go to a cut rifling barrel maker like Krieger.
I hold no malice toward a fluted barrel and can't justify the extra cost for me but they do look good and if that is what you want, I'd go for it. All the barrel makers that I know of and have dealt with wish to please the customer and I would rely on their wisdom concerning their product.
Joe
I used to flute all my barrels, I never saw the tweaking spoken of, but then again, I'm not shooting 600 or 1K benchrest. Has anyone stuck a lazer on a non fluted barrel to see if it heated up evenly? Once again, one more shot would probably bring it back in line, not going to pretzel itself.
I remember the AI findings, big news in the tactical world, but I seem to remember right after, AI quit fluting, managed to up their prices all the while reducing a process of mfg.
I'm done with flutes for the most part, but if I had a gun where the barrel was going to last more than 1 yr, and wanted the look, I would opt for it, but I have better options to spend 175.00.
As for the rigidity, or cooling, oh boy.
I remember the AI findings, big news in the tactical world, but I seem to remember right after, AI quit fluting, managed to up their prices all the while reducing a process of mfg.
I'm done with flutes for the most part, but if I had a gun where the barrel was going to last more than 1 yr, and wanted the look, I would opt for it, but I have better options to spend 175.00.
As for the rigidity, or cooling, oh boy.
Love that!
Probably the last complete factory rifle I bought is a Savage LRPV left port in 6BR. Accuracy was/is outstanding. In fact the best I have ever shot with a factory rifle by far. It came with a fluted barrel. Personally I doubt if it had 'no flutes' it (or me) could shoot any better with it.
IMO, if its something you "Want" get it....screw what everyone else thinks.
If youre asking opinions on if fluting is benificial or needful, then thats a seperate discussion.
Since you like the appearance of a fluted barrel and it sounds like you could use a little weight reduction (elk hunting rifle with a HV barrel?) just go on and do it. If you want a little extra insurance send it out and have it cryo'd. I have several rifles with fluted Krieger barrels that shoot quite well. They are all from the old days when you could get double cryo'd barrels from Krieger. Good luck & have fun with it.
My 2 cents worth. I have had a barrel fluted (Krieger) and I could not detect any difference in the way it shot. The only reason that I would have another one fluted is to lose 6-8 ounces because of rules for whatever type of competition that I was shooting. However, some disagree. The late Skip Otto fluted all of his barrels (even unlimited) and he shot button rifled Shilen barrels. Whatever works for you....go for it. James
All good stuff guys. I shoot benchrest, so I appreciate the accuracy I get out if a heavy barrel. Several of my guns are straight 1.25” and that’s fine sittin on a bench or prone. 1.25” on a hunting rifle would be wacko for sure, and I’m no mountain goat or pack animal. Even this heavy varmint barrel is outside the parameters of any serious hunter. My hunts the last 5 years consist of either using a horse to get into tough areas or a Polaris Ranger. The area I hunt now is easily accessible with my ranger. I know where the animals move in the am and pm, so I strategically place myself and just sit my ass down and wait because I’m no spring chicken. In not so many words, I’m not concerned with a heavy rifle because I’m not humping miles in and out on foot. I want to be confident that if I HAVE to take an 800yd shot I have a rifle that will do the job as long as I do mine. All my animals over the last few years were all pretty much taken at 500-600yds, although last year I took a running cow with an offhand running shot at 200. In competition I shoot silouette targets to 600 yards that are the size of a fat prarie dog, so something the size of an elk or a big mulie is almost a gimme.
I digress.....a rifle with a truely custom look always catches my eye for sure and it’s a good feeling when you have a custom one of a kind that looks great and shoots equally as well and your the proud papa.
I digress.....a rifle with a truely custom look always catches my eye for sure and it’s a good feeling when you have a custom one of a kind that looks great and shoots equally as well and your the proud papa.
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Ever notice that the ancient big buildings in Greece and Rome all have fluted columns? I wonder if it has to do with the fact that they are still standing after a 2,000+ years...
I do have two personal anecdotes to share.
1. I made two trips to the Super Shoot in the mid-nineties. One evening I was sitting with a small group under the awning on Ed Shilen's motorhome. Ed was saying that he was opposed to fluting on accuracy grounds. Tony and Faye Boyer were sitting next to me, and Tony started laughing. When asked why, he told Ed that every barrel he owned, if it shot, he then had it fluted, and 90% shot more consistently accurate.
2. Carl Hildebrandt was head of the R&D dept at Savage for many years. I toured the plant about the second year they began offering fluted barrels. Carl was very innovative, and thought outside the box a lot. He had gone to a machinery auction with Savage CEO Ron Coburn when H&R went bankrupt. He convinced him to buy this piece of equipment. Said "just trust me Ron, buy this...".
A couple weeks later he calls the Boss down to the testing area and says "watch this...". The tool was set up in a mill. There are a dozen barrels in a rack. He tells Coburn to just grab one. Carl fits it to an action in a rail gun sort of system and headspaces it. He proceeds to shoot a couple five-shot groups. He then takes the barrel back off, and fits it in the mill, like a gunsmith would to contour the barrel. The barrel is slid thru the tool, at the breech end, and starts the mill. Starts the tool and moves it six inches down from the breech end. The tool was what H&R used to cut all six revolver flutes in their little 22 revolvers at once. The tool cuts all six barrel flutes at the same time, using hydraulic pressure. All six are milling at the same exact pressure, and impart ZERO stress. Carl sticks the barrel back in the action, and shot more groups. All were smaller than before fluting. They do half a dozen barrels that afternoon, and Coburn is amazed at the results.
Gunsmiths, like Alex Wheeler, can only mill one groove at a time. The cutter pressure bends the barrel just a teensy bit. The gunsmith then rotates the barrel 180-degrees and cuts the second flute. That should bend the barrel back straight. Repeat at 180-degree intervals. Somewhere in the process, the barrel may retain a slight bend. Whether during the rifling process, or the fluting, we produce runout. In my day, that runout was indexed to be at the top of muzzle when the barrel was fit, chambered, and headspaced. The runout would make the barrel shoot a bit in that direction. That would be a bit high, which is the best orientation.
It's a thing, for sure...
Rich
I do have two personal anecdotes to share.
1. I made two trips to the Super Shoot in the mid-nineties. One evening I was sitting with a small group under the awning on Ed Shilen's motorhome. Ed was saying that he was opposed to fluting on accuracy grounds. Tony and Faye Boyer were sitting next to me, and Tony started laughing. When asked why, he told Ed that every barrel he owned, if it shot, he then had it fluted, and 90% shot more consistently accurate.
2. Carl Hildebrandt was head of the R&D dept at Savage for many years. I toured the plant about the second year they began offering fluted barrels. Carl was very innovative, and thought outside the box a lot. He had gone to a machinery auction with Savage CEO Ron Coburn when H&R went bankrupt. He convinced him to buy this piece of equipment. Said "just trust me Ron, buy this...".
A couple weeks later he calls the Boss down to the testing area and says "watch this...". The tool was set up in a mill. There are a dozen barrels in a rack. He tells Coburn to just grab one. Carl fits it to an action in a rail gun sort of system and headspaces it. He proceeds to shoot a couple five-shot groups. He then takes the barrel back off, and fits it in the mill, like a gunsmith would to contour the barrel. The barrel is slid thru the tool, at the breech end, and starts the mill. Starts the tool and moves it six inches down from the breech end. The tool was what H&R used to cut all six revolver flutes in their little 22 revolvers at once. The tool cuts all six barrel flutes at the same time, using hydraulic pressure. All six are milling at the same exact pressure, and impart ZERO stress. Carl sticks the barrel back in the action, and shot more groups. All were smaller than before fluting. They do half a dozen barrels that afternoon, and Coburn is amazed at the results.
Gunsmiths, like Alex Wheeler, can only mill one groove at a time. The cutter pressure bends the barrel just a teensy bit. The gunsmith then rotates the barrel 180-degrees and cuts the second flute. That should bend the barrel back straight. Repeat at 180-degree intervals. Somewhere in the process, the barrel may retain a slight bend. Whether during the rifling process, or the fluting, we produce runout. In my day, that runout was indexed to be at the top of muzzle when the barrel was fit, chambered, and headspaced. The runout would make the barrel shoot a bit in that direction. That would be a bit high, which is the best orientation.
It's a thing, for sure...
Rich
Well written Rich!
Benifits
Flutes aid in cooling a barrel by exposing more surface area to the outside air. Flutes can also increase the rigidity to weight ratio of the barrel, thereby reducing barrel vibration and whip over a barrel of the same weight unfluted. (For example, our #8 Standard Target barrel (fluted) - weighing 5.5lb - will be more rigid than a #7 light Target barrel (unfluted) weighing 5.5lb.
This was copied off of Kriegers web page.
They charge $150.00 for fluting.
Flutes aid in cooling a barrel by exposing more surface area to the outside air. Flutes can also increase the rigidity to weight ratio of the barrel, thereby reducing barrel vibration and whip over a barrel of the same weight unfluted. (For example, our #8 Standard Target barrel (fluted) - weighing 5.5lb - will be more rigid than a #7 light Target barrel (unfluted) weighing 5.5lb.
This was copied off of Kriegers web page.
They charge $150.00 for fluting.
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