floating carbide expander w/ neck bushing die?

[Thisguy65]

I know, I know that many of you throw your expanders away. However does the same go with the floating carbide expanders for redding FL neck sizing die?

The way I've been using mine is the bushing is used to size the OD of the neck and on the down stroke the expander just kisses the brass. This is to fix any damage brass, push variables to the OD of the case, etc.

Wanted to get the more experienced reloaders point of view. This is for a tactical match type rifle.

 

[ShootDots]

I use one in every Redding and Whidden die I have!

 

[dkhunt14]

I have used them from time to time. I know a few other top 1000 yard shooters that use then also. Matt

 

[jsthntn247]

I put all my bushing dies up and used a 15$ Lee FL die for my last match. Shot my highest score ever. Sometimes I think we over think things.

 

[barefooter56]

Thisguy65,
I use them on all my Redding Full length dies along with the Redding dry neck lube. Just dip the case neck in and go. I use Imperial die sizing wax on the cartridge case on the case body from the base of the should on down. No dented shoulders from lube build up by using the dry neck lube.

 

['Freak]

Mine aren’t the bushing style dies but all Redding size dies have had the floating carbide expander ball kits swapped in. There are no bushings involved but otherwise, my sizing procedure is same as barefooter56.

 

[skiutah02]

I've seen this topic asked a few times (in different ways) and have refrained from adding my $0.02, but I have my data in front of me so I thought I'd share. There are a number of better shooters that have commented already and I will not blame you if you listen to them, but I am a data driven guy, and like to "prove" things to myself for my situation. About a year ago, I was using a Savage 12 308 in FTR that is a pretty good shooter and had been doing as you said - FL sizing with a Redding bushing die that sized the neck so that my (unturned) brass neck just kissed the carbide floating button on the upstroke. It made sense to me that this would make the inside of my unturned brass most concentric. But being the experimentalist I am, I did a quick test for myself, just to see if using the button helped on target. I loaded 50+ rounds, half with and half without using the carbide, free-floating, button expander. I shot these round robin at 600 yds and measured vertical (most 10 shot groups, none less that 5 shot). My results that day made me stop using the carbide expander (and in some cases start neck turning). My test, my decision, just sharing. As one might expect, concentricity of loaded round as measured on projectile near ojive WAS better using the expander, but the results on target were convincing enough for me. I was mainly interested in vertical.

With expander, 3.976 in, 4.357 in, and 4.359 in (5 shot) vertical
Without expander, 3.647 in, 2.914 and 2.376 in (5 shot) vertical

Be gentle, just sharing.

Drew

 

[michaelbz]

skiutah02, thanks for posting your data. A couple of quick questions though. Did you double check your neck tension was the same between test groups? Did your brass have very good/excellent neck thickness uniformity to start with, and what was it?

I have never used the bushing+no button method because I was told I had to turn necks, which I am not willing to do.

To everyone, can the no button method be used without turning necks and print better than a button with stock lapua, or win brass? I do not have a bushing die, otherwise I would figure it out myself.

 

[ireload2]

But the real question is WHY?
Your sample size is too small to be statistically valid.
You would need a much larger sample size and then run a regression analysis to determine if the results are valid.

The Brits can provide all sorts of reasons that the Spitfire was a faster and more manuverable fighter but
they don't like to talk about its short range because any fighter is better than a fighter that did not have the range to get to the fight.

I've seen this topic asked a few times (in different ways) and have refrained from adding my $0.02, but I have my data in front of me so I thought I'd share. There are a number of better shooters that have commented already and I will not blame you if you listen to them, but I am a data driven guy, and like to "prove" things to myself for my situation. About a year ago, I was using a Savage 12 308 in FTR that is a pretty good shooter and had been doing as you said - FL sizing with a Redding bushing die that sized the neck so that my (unturned) brass neck just kissed the carbide floating button on the upstroke. It made sense to me that this would make the inside of my unturned brass most concentric. But being the experimentalist I am, I did a quick test for myself, just to see if using the button helped on target. I loaded 50+ rounds, half with and half without using the carbide, free-floating, button expander. I shot these round robin at 600 yds and measured vertical (most 10 shot groups, none less that 5 shot). My results that day made me stop using the carbide expander (and in some cases start neck turning). My test, my decision, just sharing. As one might expect, concentricity of loaded round as measured on projectile near ojive WAS better using the expander, but the results on target were convincing enough for me. I was mainly interested in vertical.

With expander, 3.976 in, 4.357 in, and 4.359 in (5 shot) vertical
Without expander, 3.647 in, 2.914 and 2.376 in (5 shot) vertical

Be gentle, just sharing.

Drew

 

[barefooter56]

skiutah02,
When we were still at SINCLAIR INTERNATIONAL one of the other techs ( Ron Dague) and I did the same experiment using Redding dies. For the Redding bushing dies we did the "with and without" using the expander ball. Both the standard and carbide expander balls.
What we found was that for some bushing dies ( Type S FL and NK) the expander ball helped concentricity and on some dies it didnt. We made sure the decapping assemblies were straight when the lock ring was tightened in all tests. Our conclusion was that you should test and see what results your die(s) give you. If the expander ball improved things then upgrade to the Carbide ball. If it didnt , leave the ball off the decapping stem and use the pin retainer collet for the decapping pin retention. Just an FYI.

 

[jsthntn247]

I've seen this topic asked a few times (in different ways) and have refrained from adding my $0.02, but I have my data in front of me so I thought I'd share. There are a number of better shooters that have commented already and I will not blame you if you listen to them, but I am a data driven guy, and like to "prove" things to myself for my situation. About a year ago, I was using a Savage 12 308 in FTR that is a pretty good shooter and had been doing as you said - FL sizing with a Redding bushing die that sized the neck so that my (unturned) brass neck just kissed the carbide floating button on the upstroke. It made sense to me that this would make the inside of my unturned brass most concentric. But being the experimentalist I am, I did a quick test for myself, just to see if using the button helped on target. I loaded 50+ rounds, half with and half without using the carbide, free-floating, button expander. I shot these round robin at 600 yds and measured vertical (most 10 shot groups, none less that 5 shot). My results that day made me stop using the carbide expander (and in some cases start neck turning). My test, my decision, just sharing. As one might expect, concentricity of loaded round as measured on projectile near ojive WAS better using the expander, but the results on target were convincing enough for me. I was mainly interested in vertical.

With expander, 3.976 in, 4.357 in, and 4.359 in (5 shot) vertical
Without expander, 3.647 in, 2.914 and 2.376 in (5 shot) vertical

Be gentle, just sharing.

Drew

Wonder if the expander wasn't opening the necks up resulting in less neck tension and your load liked a little more tension. I get more vertical with less tension in my f/tr rig as well.

 

[wolley]

The expander ball sits below the die neck..right?
It's only function is to open up the case neck after being squeezed by the die?
So if one is using a neck bushing wouldn't one want a matched ball? Or no ball at all?

 

['Freak]

The Forster’s neck bushing/shoulder bump die has a de-cap pin but no expander button. The Forster full length and neck size dies have a high mounted expander button on a ~ floating stem that has the button already entering the neck while there’s a fair portion of the neck’s topside still within and being held concentric by the neck sizing portion of the die.

Forster offers oversize expander buttons for tweakin’ neck ‘tension’, and they’ll diamond stone hone up to .008” out the inside diameter of the neck size portion of their full length and neck size dies so that folk can avoid overly squishing down the OD of the necks of their thicker neck wall brass. Good stuff, wishin’ I’d found out these things before buying several die sets by others.