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FL sizing in two steps vs. one step

Loading for PRS, I often had to deal with cases that had been on the ground and were just nasty. Often the cases were stepped on, and almost all the round would have "D-shaped" case mouths. I would also have to process a lot of cases very quickly. I opted for a progressive press for doing this. I used a process that was contrary to conventional wisdom, and similar to OP's scenario.

First, I would tumble the brass to remove debris.

I would run the brass through the press twice. First time through, I would use a universal decapping die in position one, a mandrel in position two to get the necks round again, a body die in position three, then an S-type neck die in position four. Then I would tumble again so that cases weren't sticky from lube.

On the second time through the press, I would run through the universal decapping die to ensure the flash hole was clear, prime on the downstroke, through a mandrel again, then to a funnel die, and then seat.

This resulted in two pulls of the handle per piece of brass. I would usually get 0.004" of TIR or LESS, often LESS. I had tried the same process with a regular FL die with an expander ball initially and results were all over the place. Was it the press? Was it the die? I don't know, but I changed things one process at a time until I got desired results. That is where I ended up. I think its important to recognize that processes may have different results for different people. There is no universal way of doing things, only trends. As always, there are multiple ways to skin a cat. Its the results that matter most.
Soounds more like 8 or 9 pulls of the handle per each piece of brass. Were you wet tumbling the first time then corn cob the second time?
 
I tried pulling the expander dies out of my full sizing dies, both bushing dies and non bushing dies, over the last year. I size and then set the neck tension with an expanding mandrel, I happen to be using 21st century mandrels. My average run out improved a bit and my groups improved a bit. I don’t shoot competition just enjoy the hobby of reloading and shooting. For my lever actions I just use a full length non bushing sizing die with the expander ball and go, most of those rifles are 200 yards and in and it doesn’t matter as much. Same with most of my AR loads, it’s only the bolt actions I’ve been using the mandrels for neck tension. So far I like it.
 
Soounds more like 8 or 9 pulls of the handle per each piece of brass. Were you wet tumbling the first time then corn cob the second time?
You must have misread, I'm doing it on a progressive press. Yes, I did wet tumbling first, then corn cob until the vibratory tumbler decided to die on me. The last few times I've used them in the wet tumbler without pins.
 
We have best shooters on the planet on this forum. So far, we have 2 types of responses in this thread:
1. I am wrong re widespread opinion....
2. regardless of the question posed in the thread, people report on how they size their brass.

Nobody challenged or falsified the opinion I referred to in the beginning. In concentricity department or any other dep.: does it make a difference if you size your brass in one step or 2 steps in the manner I described? Arguments pls, Gentlemen.
After about 60 plus years of various competitive shooting venues and experiences I have concludeded " Whomever reads the conditions properly and makes no mental errors, wins the match". How you size, do you annual, or what primer you use is real out there on the fringe of what makes a winner, just saying.
 
After about 60 plus years of various competitive shooting venues and experiences I have concludeded " Whomever reads the conditions properly and makes no mental errors, wins the match". How you size, do you annual, or what primer you use is real out there on the fringe of what makes a winner, just saying.
You have been shooting a long time. A lot of us are still try to learn some of the stuff you have forgotten or don’t have to think about. Primarily the question is how to prepare the perfect round with the assumption that it will lead to the perfect tune, group and aggs. I have read and done enough to be convinced that runout is a red herring issue. Obviously, a lot of us have not figured that out.

I still question whether reading the wind and not making mental mistakes is enough if your gun will not shoot better than .3 at 100. I bet a lot of good wind readers would get beat shooting against a better tuned or shooting guns in lesser hands.
 
After about 60 plus years of various competitive shooting venues and experiences I have concludeded " Whomever reads the conditions properly and makes no mental errors, wins the match". How you size, do you annual, or what primer you use is real out there on the fringe of what makes a winner, just saying.
Your experience and opinion does not contradict the fact that preparing as perfect load as possible significantly contributes to final result. I would even exaggerate by saying that a perfect round is mandatory if you think about competing at the highest level. Reading wind is also very important, but you try to beat other guys with every possible and legally admissible means- equipment, reloading etc.
 
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I was hesitant about posting this one but decided what the heck. Interesting findings.

The brass: WW .308 Win. once fired range pickups FL sized to 7mm-08 about two years ago.
The selected cases had uniform neck wall thickness of .012-.0125, never turned.
I have fired them 14 times each, trimmed once and now at max. length again. Ready for the scrap bucket.
They have been FL sized with a light bump as needed to fit gun and bushing neck sized in between.
They have never been annealed, I don't anneal brass. All 14x fired from same M700 rifle.
Loose carbon was removed against a spinning fine cup brush. I am not into shiny brass.
Six sizing steps were performed and SMK's seated with Redding Comp seater. (except one.)
Numbers are TIR.


Redding std. neck die w/button...............................SHANK___.0010___TIP___.0035
Redding BODY die followed by S bushing die...SHANK___.0020___TIP___.0050
Redding S bushing die................................................SHANK___.0010____TIP___.0045
Redding Comp bushing die.......................................SHANK___.0015____TIP___.0035
Redding std. FL die........................................................SHANK.___.0010___TIP___.0045

Redding std. FL die....SHANK__.002____Redding std. seater die____TIP___.009 wow.

Not too shabby for tired old brass.
 

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You have been shooting a long time. A lot of us are still try to learn some of the stuff you have forgotten or don’t have to think about. Primarily the question is how to prepare the perfect round with the assumption that it will lead to the perfect tune, group and aggs. I have read and done enough to be convinced that runout is a red herring issue. Obviously, a lot of us have not figured that out.

I still question whether reading the wind and not making mental mistakes is enough if your gun will not shoot better than .3 at 100. I bet a lot of good wind readers would get beat shooting against a better tuned or shooting guns in lesser hands.
I will stand by my thoughts . For the record, until I I can shoot back to back groups at least twice less than .150 I don't consider the rifle in tune. As far as your last sentence , I will put my money on the wind reader.... but few I know who have not figured out how to read conditions have learned to tune their rifle either. Learning is great, chasing shadows is seldom rewarding. Good luck in you endeavors. Since we are talking about what makes you sucessful lets include bench manners. Most shooters could learn a lot if they paid attention to the recently posted video by Bart on how and why he prepped for the TD. Like read it often and think about it. Probably worth a lot more than how to come up with a new way to prep brass, in my opinion.
 
For the record, until I I can shoot back to back groups at least twice less than .150 I don't consider the rifle in tune.
I figured something close to this. I hope you realize many of us are still struggling mightily to reach this standard. And, I might add that for a lot of us, it’s a pipe dream.
 
I figured something close to this. I hope you realize many of us are still struggling mightily to reach this standard. And, I might add that for a lot of us, it’s a pipe dream.
If you do the work and pay attention to those consistently doing well you can figure it out.
 
Thank you for your input. I think the question deserves a test. I will try to do such test in the near future.
I think the problem here is that there is a broad spectrum of what people consider the different ways to make accurate rounds. The trouble with that is you have the true competition benchrest shooters, the long range varmint shooters, the I'm a hunter and in my mind this is the way that I make the most accurate ammo for my rifle. There is just too wide a gap to answer this question correctly. If your a true benchrest shooter the std answer is get yourself a custom set of bushing dies that are made with your reamer and full length size your cases each and every time. I don't think a guy with a hunting rifle is going to benefit a whole hell of a lot from what the true competitive BR shooter does. IMO go test stuff on your own with the rifle you have and see what works the best for that rifle. I think that all we are doing is speculating back and forth what might work and what might not work. JMO.
 

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