FL sizing in two steps vs. one step

[marchx]

There is a widespread opinion that the best way to FL size your brass is to (a) resize the neck with a bushing neck sizing die (usually Redding) and then (b) resize the body of the case with a body die (people recommend also Redding for this operation). The rationale behind this process is that it should produce more concentric rounds in comparison to running a standard FL die (without expander ball+expanding the neck with a mandrel in a separate step).

The 2-step process is obviously less time efficient, so is it worth extra effort?
I didn't find answer in this thread

Two step sizing question...

So I was reading an article over on the Rifleman's Journal, where an experiment was performed that examined order of sizing operations versus concentricity readings. The findings showed that sizing a case by taking the neck down in two steps first sizing with a bushing neck die then sizing...

forum.accurateshooter.com

 

[BoydAllen]

IMO your initial statement is incorrect....totally. There is no such widespread belief.

 

[R.Morehouse]

I put my brass in the sizing die and run it up in there & leave it there while I lube the next with Imperial. The time this takes helps prevent spring back of the brass. I use custom dies and don't have a problem with run out. I shoot mostly SR BR and never found it necessary to neck size 1st. I did pick up a neck die in trade some years back but never used it. If you shoot 6ppc and decide you want one, shoot me a PM.

Regards
Rick

 

[Big Mc]

There is a widespread opinion that the best way to FL size your brass is to (a) resize the neck with a bushing neck sizing die (usually Redding) and then (b) resize the body of the case with a body die (people recommend also Redding for this operation). The rationale behind this process is that it should produce more concentric rounds in comparison to running a standard FL die (without expander ball+expanding the neck with a mandrel in a separate step).

The 2-step process is obviously less time efficient, so is it worth extra effort?
I didn't find answer in this thread

Two step sizing question...

So I was reading an article over on the Rifleman's Journal, where an experiment was performed that examined order of sizing operations versus concentricity readings. The findings showed that sizing a case by taking the neck down in two steps first sizing with a bushing neck die then sizing...

forum.accurateshooter.com

One step for me Tommy Mc Redding FL S type die any caliber.

 

[Fuj]

I just FL size then run thru a Lee Collet die with a properly
sized mandrel. A good anneal is key here. Runout is never
a problem , and getting good targets to prove out my method.

 

[SKWERLZ]

I use a body die and Lee collet.
Straight ammunition, Very little trimming and excellent brass life.
I’m not a big fan of bushings unless they are doing minimal sizing.

 

[piie]

There is a widespread opinion that the best way to FL size your brass is to (a) resize the neck with a bushing neck sizing die (usually Redding) and then (b) resize the body of the case with a body die (people recommend also Redding for this operation). The rationale behind this process is that it should produce more concentric rounds in comparison to running a standard FL die (without expander ball+expanding the neck with a mandrel in a separate step).

The 2-step process is obviously less time efficient, so is it worth extra effort?
I didn't find answer in this thread

Two step sizing question...

So I was reading an article over on the Rifleman's Journal, where an experiment was performed that examined order of sizing operations versus concentricity readings. The findings showed that sizing a case by taking the neck down in two steps first sizing with a bushing neck die then sizing...

forum.accurateshooter.com

Another "rationale" might simply be that the person only has a Redding Competition die set? FWIW - I have the competition die sets for all my calibers, and I cannot completely size my cases in another way, even if I wanted to, neck/bushing die doesnt touch body, body die doesn’t touch neck…
I can however vouch that this gives me very good ammo ito consistent neck tension, shoulder bump snd runout- which is apparently impossible since I use a Redding T7… .

 

[K22]

I've been using a standard RCBS full length sizing die with an expander ball for about 50 years except for a short period when I foolishly tried neck sizing. I've been able to produce reliable, accurate reloads with this equipment.

However, I'm not a benchrest or long range "F" class type shooter. Just an avid precision varmint hunter where a high degree of accuracy is needed but not to the level of the aforementioned shooters especially at the distances, I shoot which is under 300 yards. Therefore, keep that in mind when you read this post.

Over the years I've enhanced the process by having several expander ball assemblies polished in .001" increments to allow me to adjust and produce the desired neck tension for different lots of cases and rifles of the same caliber with other lots of cases. Also, to reduce excessive drag on the necks.

In addition, I place a rubber O ring under the expander ball assembly which allows it to float thus center under load which aids in not distorting the neck alignment with the case. Some place an O ring under the locking ring so the entire die floats.

I haven't detected any noticeable run out. Years ago, I measured such borrowing a friend's concentric tool - don't recall the exact measurements but I stop doing that since the performance results I was getting on the range and in the field met my standards using the existing reloading procedures.

The simpler the reloading process the better I like it assuming I can achieve my performance objectives.

The most significant improvement I made in my reloading process over many years of reloading and shooting was learning how to full-size cases properly. This had a pronounced effect on reliability for me over neck sizing.

Also, assuming reasonable load development, a reasonably accurate rifle / scope, I found the biggest variable to shooting well is me, the shooter. The most significant improvement I've made in improving my practical shooting skills is getting off the bench and practicing under field conditions.

Regarding reloading, assuming a suitable powder is used, the biggest variable I found is the bullet choice.

This has been my experience for whatever it's worth.

 

[JMayo]

Forget the mandrel ...
Forget the counting
FL with bushing and roll

 

[stevenpoplin]

Widespread opinion? Jeez I guess I need to get out more. For my Benchrest and 6bra varmit loads I use a three step process. Body size so it fits in the Wilson bushing neck die and then back in the Redding body die. But then between each step I get up and turn around clockwise before I sit back down for next step. I don't worry about concentricity, I jamm them with allot of neck tension. Lots of other idiocentric ritualistic behavior that I'll never expose.
I have a friend that still uses Lee collet diie. I told him he is the only one and he thinks I'm the only one that doesn't.

 

[Coyotefurharvester]

Why not full length size gutted after universal decap, then bushing neck size? Especially if the caliber is smaller than parent case caliber.

 

[marchx]

We have best shooters on the planet on this forum. So far, we have 2 types of responses in this thread:
1. I am wrong re widespread opinion....
2. regardless of the question posed in the thread, people report on how they size their brass.

Nobody challenged or falsified the opinion I referred to in the beginning. In concentricity department or any other dep.: does it make a difference if you size your brass in one step or 2 steps in the manner I described? Arguments pls, Gentlemen.

 

[rogina]

We have best shooters on the planet on this forum. So far, we have 2 types of responses in this thread:
1. I am wrong re widespread opinion....
2. regardless of the question posed in the thread, people report on how they size their brass.

Nobody challenged or falsified the opinion I referred to in the beginning. In concentricity department or any other dep.: does it make a difference if you size your brass in one step or 2 steps in the manner I described? Arguments pls, Gentlemen.

It is real simple. Do what works for you. Allow everyone else to do what works for them.

 

[BoydAllen]

We have best shooters on the planet on this forum. So far, we have 2 types of responses in this thread:
1. I am wrong re widespread opinion....
2. regardless of the question posed in the thread, people report on how they size their brass.

Nobody challenged or falsified the opinion I referred to in the beginning. In concentricity department or any other dep.: does it make a difference if you size your brass in one step or 2 steps in the manner I described? Arguments pls, Gentlemen.

Do you own a concentricity gauge? Have you ever been to a sanctioned short range benchrest match?

 

[whatsupdoc]

My personal experience has been that Redding bushing dies do NOT produce more concentric
cases than other manufactures bushing dies. In my opinion that is a MYTH.

My standard full length sizing dies produce the least runout.

 

[Kracken McGraw]

Lots of other idiocentric ritualistic behavior that I'll never expose

On my fls dies like the Forster’s, I will drop case back down spin it 180 and do it again like 2 step seating. I’m sure it doesn’t do a damn thing but work my brass more, but it makes me feel good!

 

[Ned Ludd]

If a two-step process achieves the desired result and a one-step process does not, is the two-step process really "less time efficient"?

I FL resize with a bushing die followed by a mandrel to set neck tension. I believe I get more consistent results using this approach. Yes, it takes basically double the amount of time. However, I end up with a product that satisfies my needs, so I wouldn't say that the extra time involved is wasted effort.

Questions regarding additional steps in the reloading process and marginal gains are usually difficult to answer definitively because their value/worth can only be effectively judged by the end user.

 

[marchx]

If a two-step process achieves the desired result and a one-step process does not, is the two-step process really "less time efficient"?

I FL resize with a bushing die followed by a mandrel to set neck tension. I believe I get more consistent results using this approach. Yes, it takes basically double the amount of time. However, I end up with a product that satisfies my needs, so I wouldn't say that the extra time involved is wasted effort.

Questions regarding additional steps in the reloading process and marginal gains are usually difficult to answer definitively because their value/worth can only be effectively judged by the end user.

Thank you for your input. I think the question deserves a test. I will try to do such test in the near future.

 

[Ned Ludd]

Thank you for your input. I think the question deserves a test. I will try to do such test in the near future.

Testing is usually the only way to know with any certainty whether a potential approach is worth incorporating into the reloading scheme. The caveat that may come into play is when the differences between two approaches are not "in your face" obvious, as they often turn out to be. It can sometimes be much more difficult to reliably demonstrate whether some particular approach provides an advantage or improvement over another if the difference is fairly small. For example, a slight improvement in the consistency of neck tension might mean slightly more consistent velocity. Such an improvement might only be worth a point or two per match. So it wouldn't necessarily be something from which you could draw a definitive conclusion in a single test. Nonetheless, it is still possible over time to reach a valid conclusion. For approaches where the difference might be very small (but not zero), at times we still have to go with our gut instinct to make a final decision. Best of luck with the testing!

 

[Dusty Stevens]

It is also widespread belief (thats actually true) that everytime you run a case into a die you have the potential to induce runout, so you may be doing even worse by using 2 dies. It still stands that a neck sizing die shouldnt be bought or owned. Too much temptation to use it.