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FL sizing die information

My runout on sized cases was 4 thous earlier today. And got me thinking about how to reduce this. So I grabbed my die and looked at it straight on looking into the body of the die and visibly could tell the expander was not centered. So I lubed about 25 cases and turned the decapping stem in slightly and checked runout. Runout was about 0035. So turned the die in some more and sized the case. Checked runout and it was about 3. Kept repeating and got it down to 1.5 thous. Then if I turned it in some more it got worse again. The next few cases I backed the decapping stem out and repeated the process and got about the same findings. So turned it in until I got 1.5 thous and proceeded to size about 10 cases. And they ranged from 1.5-2 thous. So called my shooting buddys and asked how they set their FL dies up so the expander was centered.

Thought this may be helpful post to any new reloaders or some other "experienced" who are having same issues

How are y'all setting up the dies to ensure the expander is centered in the die?
 
I use Redding with the floating carbide ball if I use an expander. Or I use a mandrel and expand after sizing. Matt
 
I use the Forster because the expander is located just a few thou. below the neck. So a slight tweak of the decap stem doesn't magnify the R/O as severely. You would probably be better off to just replace the stem to get lowest possible R/O. .......... If your die has a skinny stem buy two as it'll probably get tweaked again. Or, get an LCD & a body die. 8)
 
I also use a rubber O ring under the depriming / expander assembly allowing it to float which aids in allowing it to self center.
 
i'm using the COAx press so the die floats. Also Whidden's new decapping unit utilizes 2 rubber washers. Here is a pic of his new unit



Seems the best I can get it is 0015-2 thous and the worst it has been is 4 thous
 
Your dies should be adjusted for their proper shoulder bump with the die lock ring not tightened down. A lubed case should be placed in the shell holder and then extend the ram to full extension (cam over) and then tighten and secure the die lock ring. This centers the die in the press and removes any alignment errors.

Next on the down stroke of the ram with the lock nut loose on the decapping/expander button, lower the ram until the ball expander enters the neck of the case and then tighten the lock nut. This centers the expander button in the die to reduce runout.

Below, if you do not have equal case wall and neck thickness it doesn't matter what kind of die you use, or how much time you spend centering the expander button, your still going to have excess runout.

neckcenter_zps94286f86.jpg


Using rubber o-rings will also not fix runout with unequal neck thickness, bottom line good quality brass is needed for minimum runout. You can't make a silk purse from a sows ear, even with the "I drink too much coffee and my fingers shake mod" on your runout gauge. ;)

Below the metal bar and lock nut keeps the V-blocks from moving up and down with finger pressure and you get better runout readings. (depending on your bifocals and amount of coffee consumed) :(

runout002_zps1be00ba1.jpg


And there is a correlation between runout and concentricity and you may now call me "bend it bigedp51". Hornady concentricity gauge in the upper left of photo below, sorry I have more bad brass than good brass and it needs bending. :(

runout003_zpsd19b7cc3.jpg
 
bigedp51 said:
Below the metal bar and lock nut keeps the V-blocks from moving up and down with finger pressure and you get better runout readings. (depending on your bifocals and amount of coffee consumed) :(

runout002_zps1be00ba1.jpg

I find that a little case lube on the V-Blocks helps keep the case from riding up the side of he block which will also cause false runout. I keep a q-tip moistened with Hornady One Shot near. A wipe with the q-tip keeps the blocks clean and leaves behind a slight lube film that is negligible on the case after checking R/O. The blocks on my Case Master don't move up and down when tightened. Could be a part by part variation but I haven't seen the need for a hold down bar. I would like to see a spring loaded hold down to keep the case under uniform pressure. May make a v-block out of plastic and put it on a lever with an off-center spring. One that holds the lever up or holds it down, depending.
 
amlevin said:
bigedp51 said:
Below the metal bar and lock nut keeps the V-blocks from moving up and down with finger pressure and you get better runout readings. (depending on your bifocals and amount of coffee consumed) :(

runout002_zps1be00ba1.jpg


I would like to see a spring loaded hold down to keep the case under uniform pressure.
John Hoover at accuracy one sells one. I don't know who makes it but it is a spring loaded wheel that holds the case down. You just spin the wheel and read the gauge.
 
This was more to help show proper way to set up a FL die the best you can but I will post my results and tools used.

I have the Sinclair concentricity tool with a 0005 indicator. Use Hornady 1 shot spray lube. Bump shoulder 1-2 thous each firing. Lapua brass were turned by me to 0142 something. CoAx press. John Whidden FL die(bushing and non bushing style)

I took apart the die and set it up per big ed suggestion. And the runout was 1.5 thous. So this is much improved in my eyes over the 4 thous or more I was getting lately
 
Having used the RCBS and many other designs, I have to tell you that its design is among the worst because of friction between cases and the V blocks. If you want to measure the runout of loaded rounds, and correct the runout (not recommending just saying if) the H&H cannot be beat. For measuring the runout of cases, the bearing balls that Sinclair uses are the lowest friction of any that I have tried. On the Hornady tool, it has a design flaw in that the body of a fired, and sized case, above the solid head is usually not symmetrical with the rim of the case. IMO, custom one piece dies that have the neck ID correct give the most consistently low sized case runout. The other way to approach this, that I have done several times successfully, is to design a tight neck chamber reamer so that the neck tension is correct without an expander ball, and loaded neck clearance is correct with necks turned to design thickness. With this setup you can have say .003 neck tension with no expander, and .002 with, and with the expander doing so little work, concentricity is not reduced. The amount that cases are reduced in body diameter in sizing also gets into this, and believe it or not, a friend found that his lube pad was distributing lube unevenly around the case and causing a concentricity problem that went away when he applied the lube with his fingers. It seems that people get some sort of emotional satisfaction from tightening things snugly, metal to metal, but I have found that Lee lock rings, that have a built in O ring, can improve results. Just remember to just snub them enough so that the die is secure from rotation in use, and not so much that the metal of the lock ring touches the press. Carbide bushings are more true than steel or coated steel. so if you use bushings, and they are available in your size, you might consider that. Recently I tried out a new S type Redding die, dropped in a new bushing and sized a case, and was severely disappointed with the runout. It turns out that the problem was the preservative oil was in the bottom of the bushing cavity was the problem. Once I cleaned that out, the die worked as it should. Even with "experienced" dies, this is an area that needs to be cleaned from time to time. If you have to get by with a cheap one piece die, and want to get the best results, after you hit the top of the press stroke, lower the ram enough to be able to turn the case, and turn it 90 degrees and run it back to the top. Do this three times so that you have sized the case a total of four times, and then instead of using the expander ball to open up the neck, use a expander mandrel and die, with the inside of the necks lubed. This will take longer, and involve extra work, but the results will be a lot better than using the die conventionally. The latest experiment that a friend did at my suggestion (He has a lathe, I don't.) is to check the faces of lock rings for runout. Forster and Hornady were the best, the ones that are solid and do not have a piece of lead shot under the tip of the screw were the worst. He trued up his lock rings, and a bunch of mine. The ones that were the worst type were not done, because they would not set consistently to the same angle.
 
BoydAllen said:
Recently I tried out a new S type Redding die, dropped in a new bushing and sized a case, and was severely disappointed with the runout. It turns out that the problem was the preservative oil was in the bottom of the bushing cavity was the problem. Once I cleaned that out, the die worked as it should.

On the topic of bushings, make sure that the bushing itself is concentric. I recently discovered that Forster had some bushings that had rather severe roll marks on them. These markings (size, mfr name) had metal "upset" around the numbers/characters that caused the bushing to seat off center in the die.

When I worked this upset metal down with a stone until the bushing OD showed zero runout the cases suddenly were "straight". Spoke to Forster on this and they may start using either laser or electro etching rather than the roll markings.
 
Great info guys, thanks!

Was recently loading for .223 (not accuracy) and running crimped-primer-pocket brass thru the FL die to save a step or 2. Primers were pretty secure and actually ended up tweaking the decapping rod, though I did not notice at the time. Long story short, the expander was so far off center that it was bending the necks off at an angle visible to the naked eye!

Needless to say, I added about 4 more steps to that batch of brass and learned from my mistakes.
 

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