First time reloading - cartridge weight question

[SigEd]

Hi all,
I am a first time reloader. My desire to reload was inspired by the recent ammo shortage and trying to find .38 spl ammo.
I got a lee pro 4000 reloader and everything seems tuned close to perfect. I'm using Berry's 158 gr .38 flat point plated bullets and v-3n37 powder. The load data calls for 5.6 start grains and I have the auto-drum powder measure adjusted to getting 5.6 grains consistently every time. I tested it by taking the casing out of the loader after the powder was charged and weighing the powder by dumping it into a powder pan that was zeroed on a scale set to measure grains. I tested 25 casings and all were exactly 5.6. The bullet seating isn't the most accurate and I sometimes had to re-seat the bullet to get it down to the correct OAL (1.430" per spec). I did order a custom bullet seat plug from Lee to hopefully help with this since their stock plug is for a round bullet.

I decided to weigh 10 of the finished cartridges to see how they compared with each other and they came back with the following weights in grains (sorted lights to heaviest):

226.06
226.08
228.84
230.60
231.96
232.22
234.32
235.72
236.00
236.10
237.44

The 232.22 cartridge is one I ran through the reloaded individually and weighed it afterwards.

Are cartridge weights normally this far off or do I have an issue? note: the brass is different brands of once fired commercial ammo.

Thanks much,
Ed

 

[SSL]

Hi all,
I am a first time reloader. My desire to reload was inspired by the recent ammo shortage and trying to find .38 spl ammo.
I got a lee pro 4000 reloader and everything seems tuned close to perfect. I'm using Berry's 158 gr .38 flat point plated bullets and v-3n37 powder. The load data calls for 5.6 start grains and I have the auto-drum powder measure adjusted to getting 5.6 grains consistently every time. I tested it by taking the casing out of the loader after the powder was charged and weighing the powder by dumping it into a powder pan that was zeroed on a scale set to measure grains. I tested 25 casings and all were exactly 5.6. The bullet seating isn't the most accurate and I sometimes had to re-seat the bullet to get it down to the correct OAL (1.430" per spec). I did order a custom bullet seat plug from Lee to hopefully help with this since their stock plug is for a round bullet.

I decided to weigh 10 of the finished cartridges to see how they compared with each other and they came back with the following weights in grains (sorted lights to heaviest):

226.06
226.08
228.84
230.60
231.96
232.22
234.32
235.72
236.00
236.10
237.44

The 232.22 cartridge is one I ran through the reloaded individually and weighed it afterwards.

Are cartridge weights normally this far off or do I have an issue? note: the brass is different brands of once fired commercial ammo.

Thanks much,
Ed

You pretty much have it figured out by saying the brass is different brands. There is a discrepancy between cases of even the same brands, let alone different ones. Sounds like you are getting along pretty well. Take it slow and pay attention to the process and you should be fine. Never be afraid to seek help and be safe.

 

[Bill Norris]

Varying manufs. of brass will weigh varying amounts.

 

[Rocketvapor]

Visual powder column before seating.

 

[SigEd]

Visual powder column before seating.

Good call, I do have a 90 degree fiber optic bore light I can use for this.

 

[SigEd]

You pretty much have it figured out by saying the brass is different brands. There is a discrepancy between cases of even the same brands, let alone different ones. Sounds like you are getting along pretty well. Take it slow and pay attention to the process and you should be fine. Never be afraid to seek help and be safe.

Ah, thanks! I never measured anything in grains before but it is appearing to be a very small scale so any minute changes in weight probably look a lot worse in this measurement. I also don't clean the brass (yet) so there could be various amounts of powder residue.

 

[762plinker]

answer to the question
YES

 

[fkimble@charter.net]

The bullet weight may be most of your variation. Unless your shooting 50 yd bullseye, you should be good to go.

Frank

 

[mfendley]

In addition to what was mentioned above, it sounds like you have some stock of components. Weigh a same of bullets to see what variance you have (I'm betting not much), and do the same for the cases. I would sort the cases by the head markings, and then load in batches with the same head stamp. As it is now, if you get a difference in elevation, you're going to wonder if it is your aim, or if you loaded something incorrectly, when it could be due to the different brass. If you have different cases with different volumes, and you load them with the same amount of powder, you're going to have different velocities.

 

[K22]

This is a detail you need not be concerned with regarding loading the 38 special for recreational target shooting. I have literally shot thousands of these cartridges for close to 50 years, in match competition, and for recreational target shooting.

Instead, the most important aspect of loading this cartridge is to make absolutely 100% sure you do not double charge a case which is possible with this cartridge using fast burning powder.

Secondly, applying an appropriate crimp in important. For bullets without a cannelure, you will need to apply a taper crimp with requires a separate taper crimp die. If the bullet has a cannelure, then a smooth moderate roll crimp should be applied with can be accomplished with a standard die set.

For the ultimate in accuracy, the absolute best target bullet is the 148 grains, swaged, hollow base wadcutter with an appropriate charge of fast burning powder such as bullseye or 231 or something similar. For match competition requiring "X" precision at 50 years, the best results are obtained with cases of the same brand and lot.

 

[SigEd]

This is a detail you need not be concerned with regarding loading the 38 special for recreational target shooting. I have literally shot thousands of these cartridges for close to 50 years, in match competition, and for recreational target shooting.

Instead, the most important aspect of loading this cartridge is to make absolutely 100% sure you do not double charge a case which is possible with this cartridge using fast burning powder.

Secondly, applying an appropriate crimp in important. For bullets without a cannelure, you will need to apply a taper crimp with requires a separate taper crimp die. If the bullet has a cannelure, then a smooth moderate roll crimp should be applied with can be accomplished with a standard die set.

For the ultimate in accuracy, the absolute best target bullet is the 148 grains, swaged, hollow base wadcutter with an appropriate charge of fast burning powder such as bullseye or 231 or something similar. For match competition requiring "X" precision at 50 years, the best results are obtained with cases of the same brand and lot.

K22,
This is excellent info, thank you. These bullets do not have a cannelure and my loader just puts a roll crimp on them. I do have an option to put a taper crimp die in the currently open position 4 of my loader. Lee says this makes the round much more consistent and accurate. I might look into that. I am only shooting this 10 ft away though out of a revolver with a 1 inch barrel. I can’t even imagine shooting a 38 spl 50 yards. That is insane and awesome. Do wadcutters required a special casing or are they interchangeable? I saw on a used brass website that they sell the wadcutter casings separately from the other ones.

Thanks,
Ed

 

[Homerange]

@SigEd
Never lose sight of the fact 1 grain is 1/7000th of a pound. A 10th is 1/70,000th < both tiny amounts.
Be precise and safe.

 

[dthomas]

No you don't need different cases for different bullet types. For what you are doing those bullets are fine. You don't want to roll crimp those. You can readjust your seating die so it doesn't crimp and you can use a separate taper crimp die. Keep asking questions for anything you're not sure of.

 

[NZ_Fclass]

I wish I had this site available when I started reloading. It's great to see the support that the guys are offering to a newbie. I confess to weighing cartridges too.

Come to think about it...the internet would have been handy....or even a PC....and maybe a calculator.

 

[K22]

K22,
This is excellent info, thank you. These bullets do not have a cannelure and my loader just puts a roll crimp on them. I do have an option to put a taper crimp die in the currently open position 4 of my loader. Lee says this makes the round much more consistent and accurate. I might look into that. I am only shooting this 10 ft away though out of a revolver with a 1 inch barrel. I can’t even imagine shooting a 38 spl 50 yards. That is insane and awesome. Do wadcutters required a special casing or are they interchangeable? I saw on a used brass website that they sell the wadcutter casings separately from the other ones.

Thanks,
Ed

Not sure what you mean by a "special casing" but if you mean cartridge case, then no. Any standard 38 special or for that matter, 357 magnum case will accommodate the 148-grain swaged hollow base wadcutter.

With these bullets, a light roll crimp over the lip of the bullet should be applied or, for ultimate accuracy, a taper crimp. These bullets are designed for ultimate target grade accuracy.

For shooting at the distances your described out of a 1"-barrel revolver, it really isn't worthwhile to go to the target grade hollow base wadcutter. In other words, there is no value to be obtained.

A good lead bullet your application would be the Oregon Trail, 125 grade, laser cast lead bullet. Another good bullet which will reduce recoil, is the 110 Hornady jacketed XTP bullet. Both of these bullets work best with fast burning powders such as 231. Make sure you use only published load data from reputable sources such as Hornady, Sierra, Speer, Lyman etc. and be absolutely sure you do not double charge with these fast powders. Also, a roll crimp in the cannelures should be used with both of these bullets.

 

[markm87]

As you can see, weighing pistol ammo is fruitless. You can't tell if you have NO Charge or a Double Charge.

It's all about paying close attention. I visual every single round.

 

[divingin]

I assume you're using a combination seat/crimp die? That is usually what comes with a pistol die set. The best initial upgrade (IMO) is to get a second crimp die, and set your seat station (or die) to only seat (raise the crimp up so it doesn't do anything), and crimp in a separate step.

Weight variation may be from bullet, powder, primer or brass (in other words, anything.) Since you're using mixed brass, I would lay big money on the variation coming from there. Pretty simple to check - throw some empties on your scale.

I'll second (or third or fourth) the double-charge warning. 38 Special is a relatively large case that takes a small charge. Lots of room to make mistakes, especially if working with faster powders.

Lastly, the HBWC tend to be very long for weight. They extend fairly far into the case when seated flush. You may have problems with the base of the bullet bulging the brass. If that happens, take note of which headstamp this occurs on, and cull them out of your supply. Brass is not made equally, and you may get some where it thickens higher up on the case than others. Luckily, the HBWC is more tolerant of base swaging than solid bullets (as the hollow base obturates under pressure and fills the bore.)

 

[Coyotefurharvester]

Take a handful of fired mixed brass and weigh, sure you will see several grain difference between brands. Also the Berrys will vary some. If you over crimp the plated bullets you will see debris marks(plating) on targets at close range, this will affect accuracy.

 

[Rocketvapor]

Your reported cartridge weights show you have a 0.02 grain scale.
I've had good weight tolerance with the same 158gr plated bullet. Maybe +/- 1gr.
With bulk lead bullets (swc) maybe a little more variance, +/- 3gr.
Do a rough sort of your brass by weight/by brand.
You will enjoy plinking with cartridges that have a smaller range of weights.

Even with sorting projectiles and cases you will never detect powder issues in 38cal by weight.
In the old days you would load a block full and visually inspect the entire block with a flashlight for powder level.
Started the wife off with scoops. "you gonna shoot, you gonna reload"



Woman can run through some 9mm

 

[SigEd]

In addition to what was mentioned above, it sounds like you have some stock of components. Weigh a same of bullets to see what variance you have (I'm betting not much), and do the same for the cases. I would sort the cases by the head markings, and then load in batches with the same head stamp. As it is now, if you get a difference in elevation, you're going to wonder if it is your aim, or if you loaded something incorrectly, when it could be due to the different brass. If you have different cases with different volumes, and you load them with the same amount of powder, you're going to have different velocities.

I sorted the brass which took a minute because I have a few thousand casings. I have 22 different brands . The gun range I shoot at lets you take brass other people shot that is on the ground or in the barrel. I never spent a lot of time digging through there or searching on the ground but if I saw a pile of revolver brass I would check it out. I took 25 out of each brand and weighed the empty casings with the primers removed and cleaned. I was surprised to see most of the casings for each brand were within 1 grain of each other, but casings of different brands can weigh as much as 10 grains apart. The more recognizable ammo like federal, Winchester, and Aguila seemed like their tolerances were a lot closer and consistent. I 3D printed custom casings holders for each brand so I can keep them sorted. Thanks for the recommendation of separating the brass, this was a good exercise for a newbie to go through.