First Post, suggestion for 223 varmint rifle

[fourbore]

I guess this is nothing new, but; I really can use some advise. I have a 527 Carbine and found I can squeeze 1 moa at 100 yards with 50 grain Golden Eagle. I stocked up prior to the last shortage. I love that gun and everything about it from weight to caliber.

I want another 223. I dont reload. I like to hang out at the club and shoot out to 200 yards and I have permission to hunt some open fields. I can drive out and setup. Gun weight is not an issue. I want to stay with 223. My goal is 1/2 moa for 5 shots at 100 with some 50-55 factory load. I do not fire a lot of rounds, ammo cost not a concern. I would get a kick out of shooting sub 1/2 moa with some match ammo if the stars lined up for me.

I am considering 3 guns. Not found any of these locally, I am limited to perusing company websites and reading various forums. I am open to anything that does not need a trigger job or bedding or any other work. I dont want a Remington just because.

First option is a CZ Varmint in Walnut. I really like the looks and price. I like the 527 set trigger. And I may just get one, when the become available again via my LGS. The have a 1/9 twist which is fastest I need. I am waiting on availability and exploring my options while I wait.

Next choice is Savage LRPV primarily because of the match trigger that adjusts down to 8 oz more/less. That and Savage has a good reputation for accuracy. They dont look like much and seem to cost a lot of money for what they are. I would want 1/9 twist because of using lighter bullets at 300 yds max. The website shows 1500$. True Retail unknown.

Finally is Sako 85 ss Varmint laminated, with a set trigger. Twist seems a bit of a mystery. I dont want real fast twist but 1/12 seems a bit limiting. Either 9 or 10 would suit me if they offer that. These only cost a little more than a LRPV and seems like a lot more quality, fit and finish. I am fine paying more (1800$) if these will really (on average) out shoot the above. Can I even buy one with a medium or moderate twist. I am also guessing, the re-sale on a Sako is a lot better than a Savage if I need to get out from under. I dont hear much about these. Why?

 

[hogpatrol]

Here's one option:

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=499116620

My .02, before I spent 1800 on a factory gun, I'd shop around with a few gunsmiths for a custom job first.

 

[pacificman]

Have you considered Cooper firearms of Montana?

 

[JRS]

The best bang for the buck is the CZ

 

[fourbore]

Have you considered Cooper firearms of Montana?

Yea, a little bit, it seems like even more cost. They do have a 3 shot accuracy guarantee and there are a few dealers that carry an inventory. I worry I might be paying disproportionately more for looks than accuracy? I am no big shot money bags, yet, I can buy a gun if I want too. I dont know if I am up for that much right now, could be eventually. I am old enough to actually like the fact cooper are made in USA. I heard they shoot test targets at 50 yards and then dont label the distance. Just kinda strikes me odd.

Sako has been around a long time and seems like they are one maker that has very few critics.

The internet is crazy too. I saw a few guys ranting and raving how bad an experience they had with cooper. Or others have a vandetta on Savage or CZ. Then some seem blind in love with a favorite maker. Savage is popular, I just not sure why? Because they used to be cheep? Easy barrel swap? I just join this forum because I hope to learn more.

Do I have to pay $1500 for a LRPV Savage to get the match trigger? Since when do savage cost so much? When I did not care seems like a lot of 22 cf Savage on LGS's shelves. Now I hardly ever Savage beyond axis or whatever. Trigger aside, What are my odds of getting a 1/2 moa factory ammo with a savage right out of the box (any model 12) ?

Jezzz, I got to take a quiz for every reply....

 

[MrMajestic]

Might want to check out the list at theshooterscorner.com JMHO

 

[fourbore]

The best bang for the buck is the CZ

The 527 wood varmint has been changed to longer bbl with 1/9 twist and renamed the euro varmint. The next shipment is due off the boat in september. That is within my comfort zone and my default plan. While I wait, I am open minded to other options. And even if this is my choice, should it not pan out, I may want a plan B.

 

[Bangs OH]

I have some of the rifles you mentioned, most in .204, though. Although I handload, I have tried factory ammo in most.
The C-Z Varmint is an excellent choice. Mine is a discontinued Kevlar Varmint model that will go 5/8" easily with Fed Premium 39 grain .204 ammo. The set trigger is nice; I'm going to a stiffer spring after some light strikes. The long-throw, backward safety is kind of a pain in quick-shooting situations. But overall, though, an accurate, reliable rifle.
I wouldn't rule out the Cooper in the higher price range. Just had my .204 out yesterday and used some of the aforementioned ammo for foulers after a cleaning: first shot was 3/8 inch from the next two which were touching - at 100 yards. Yes, they shoot as well as they look. A new "single-shot" M21 can be had for not much more than a Model 85 Sako Varmint; lightly-used .223s turn up sometimes for much less. And although there a rifles out there that'll shoot factory loads a half-inch, finding that combo is pretty much a luck thing; Cooper guarantees that, with "premium" factory ammo.
In fact, since Beretta took over Tikka/Sako, there's no way I'll consider buying another. Have one of those, too, (an A7, admittedly a notch below the 85) that has some issues - including the infamous Sako ejection problems. Not a Savage fan, I'd buy one of those Low Profile Varmint fast-twist Model 12s, or a Model 10 Predator Max 1 before considering a Beretta Sako.
Also, if that wait for the C-Z gets too long: Check out the new Browning Predator models. Fast-twist in .223 and .22-250, DBM; 26" medium barrel in '250, 24" in .223. - enough length and weight to double as "varmint" rifles. Although Miroku-Browning builds a good-shooting, quality rifle these new-tech models won't have the same feel/fit and finish as the Old World C-Z or American Remington 700. A dealer like James Wayne Firearms might have some traditional longer-barreled blued walnut A-Bolt .223s, or a discontinued varmint type if you check his site. Browning's made some good, affordable varmint rifles in recent years; they just don't seem to get the publicity they (probably) deserve.

 

[K22]

I currently shoot seven different 223's; all with 12" twists and all with 50 and 55 grain Nosler bullets.

Believe me, the 12" twist is not limiting with these weight bullets. I have several rifles that group sub 1/2 moa, one that groups sub 1/4 moa and the rest in the sub 5/8 moa category.

The trend is for faster twist rates. Since I don't have any rifles with those twist rates I'll defer to others to comment of them with the bullet weight that you're interested in using.

You may want to look at the new Browning X Bolts, especially the varmint stalker. I have the composite stalker and it's a 5/8 moa rifle with tailored reloads. However the trigger isn't great, I had to have mine worked on to get it down to 3 lbs. This rifle has a sporter weight barrel, 22", 12" twist. Great for stalking.

I also have a Browning A Bolt, Varmint Stalker, the rifle is in the sub 1/2 moa category. It has a 24" heavy barrel, 12" twist. Very accurate out of the box. Shot many of ghogs with this rifle.

 

[Phil]

You might be able to land a really nice custom in your price range.

I bought a Cooper MTV in .223 a LONG time ago. It sat around, unfired, forever...i was actually planning on selling it.

A buddy talked me into scoping and shooting it, with 50gr ultramax ammo from cabelas this thing shoots 5 shot groups in the 3`s like nothing, boy am i glad nobody wanted to buy it from me.

The thing that impressed me the most is that this was done with NO, ZERO load development at all......Sure there are plenty of WAY more accurate rifles out there, but this one will suffice for the time i put into it( none ) and the results i`m getting from it.

Every rifle is different, i just happened to find one that liked the type of factory ammo i had laying around, do your homework you`ll find a rifle that will do exactly what you want it to

Good luck with your decision,

Phil.

 

[fourbore]

Bangs,K22,phil,

Thank you for taking the time to share your experience. I will give some serious thought to Cooper, new and used. If a used gun has the old 1/12 twist, that probably is fine, since it works for me now.

 

[fourpower]

really save some money and get a Mossberg mvp with 24in bbl and 1in9 twist. we have 4 of them and they all shoot bugholes. we lap all the bbl when new and make sure the barrels are free floated. one of them holds range record! .009 @ 100yds==4.89 5 shot group @ 900yds! they all shoot 70gr bergers with varget! we are waiting on a 1in7 twist bbl to try the 90gr bergers. as I said if wind doesn't get to bad nobody has been able to beat these .223 at the range out to 900yds.

 

[bigedp51]

fourbore

I have a Savage (Stevens 200) .223 rifle with a 1 in 9 twist and the throat is longer than either of my AR15 rifles. Meaning do your research and check the twist rates of the rifles you are looking at and their throats if you plan to shoot the lighter bullets.

 

[CoyoteTan]

I head nothing but good about Tikka, check it out.

 

[JarheadAZ]

I know it's not the first thing to come to one's mind but the https://www.stagarms.com/model-6-super-varminter/ is a good deal. Mine holds up to the 1/2 MOA guarantee with Prvi-Partizan (PPU) 69gr and 75gr Match, and makes generic 55gr FMJ and SP shoot like Match ammo. With handloads, it does even a little bit better.

Mine has had the Thordsen Stock conversion to make it NY Legal. Looks a bit hokey, but it works fine once one gets used to it.

My club match rifle is a Dick's Sporting Goods special, a Savage 11VT .223 http://www.dickssportinggoods.com/shop/index.jsp?categoryId=12270519&ab=ACLN1_Link_Rifles_PredatorVarmint. The Stag and the VT shoot the same 75gr handload remarkably nicely. Both rifles have 24" target barrels, the Stag's twist is 1:8" and the VT's is 1:9".

These rifles also handle the 50gr V-Max well, and also handle the Fed Fusion MSR 62gr 'deer' load respectably. I put deer in parentheses because while I imagine it could take down speed goats at a reasonable distance, I doubt it would have anchored my 140lb upstate NY doe this past season.

My deer loads are Hornady .280 and .30-'06 chamberings.

Greg

 

[DBLNUT]

The Tikkas are in my opinion the nicest. I have a T3 lite SS 223 I shoot the 65 SGK out of that is a .5-.75MOA rifle, it is a 10 twist

 

[searcher]

Out of your lineup, I'd lean towards the CZ. I recently bought one, with the same idea that at least I might not have to do a trigger job on it and I know a few other guys that were real happy with theirs. It shot under 1/2". After a gunsmith screwed up the barrel putting on a brake, I opted to re-barrel it and put a Lilja barrel on it, changed the stock, etc. and now I have a NICE varmint rig at a price that I could have had a custom gun for. One forgets how much nicer the custom guns are - until a factory gun is used. If I were in your shoes, I'd find a lightly used custom build with the features you want and forego any of these picks - or a higher-end rig which could still be had within your budget. If you bore-scoped all three barrels of those you are looking at, you would probably like the Sako best, then the CZ - and the Savage may give you nightmares. Accuracy aside, there is something to be said about the ease of cleaning a barrel. I don't know about the recent Sako barrels, but I have a 6PPC Sako from the mid 80's that has the best looking bore of any barrel I have ever looked at - and I have many custom barrels from all the top names. For me, it always comes back to the trigger though. If I can't hang a Jewel trigger (or equivalent) on it, I'm no longer interested. At least you can do that with the Remington 700..

 

[fourbore]

I found an older CZ varmint NIB inventory with 1/12. If all goes well that will ship to my FFL. You never know, but I put in the order. Nice traditional wood gun and price at $600 is reasonable on the wallet.

This is from before the change over to 1/9 faster twist. The future for CZ in 223 is 1/9 for heavy bullets and maybe those long chamber I am warn about. They state the chamber is cut for both 223 and 5.56 in the new models.

This is a 24" (not 26") Varmint barrel and like I said has a 1/12 twist with 223 only chamber. I think I was lucky to find one of the last old Varmint models. I can always look at one of the 1/12 savage if i get a dud. Or save my SS checks for a 1/12 Sako. But I hope this CZ is 1/2 moa capable with factory Vmax or comparable ammo. Got some Fiocci 50gr and Hornady 40gr ammo ready to try.

 

[Outrider27]

Or once you have the CZ in hand, if it disappoints, any competent gunsmith can re-barrel it with a Lilja, Bartlein, Broughten, Shilen, etc., and probably for a lot less than the price of another new rifle. We have an old 24" barreled model 700 varmint special with a 1 in 12 twist, and since we keep our bullet weights under 63 grains, we haven't found the 12 twist limiting. 5/8" 5 shot groups at 100 yards with 55 grain factory ammo. If we were buying one today we would prefer a faster twist, but we stole this one at a clearance sale in 1973, so we can't complain.

 

[webfoot56]

Have remingtons, sakos, tikkas and savage rifles. I have a SAVAGE model 12 FCV WITH ACCU-TRIGGER and bedding block in 204 ruger what a great prairie dog rifle. cost was less than 800 dollars. The Winchester model 70 made in the 1990s with the Wilson barrel and HS-PRECISION stock is worth searching out. The 223 has a 1-9 twist, it is a heavy rifle but very accurate.