First hand loads, and 156 Bergers

[PD Gohil]

So I've jumped into this black hole abyss of reloading and I'm starting with the 156 Berger's for my savage 6.5 CM.

6.5 CM savage chassis. 1:8 24" barrel
156 Berger's, Hornady 1x brass(my rifle), Federal 205 primer, RL 16, suppressed
Seated to max mag length 2.80
Clean barrel
Factory Hornady 143 eldx fouling shots
2568, 2648, 2632, 2652

37.7- 2384, 2384
37.9- 2384, 2424
38.1- 2427, 2437
38.3- 2483, 2473
38.5- 2512, 2531
38.7- 2475, 2525
38.9- 2543, 2545
39.1- 2560, 2561
39.3- 2547, 2578
39.5- 2555, 2590
Last 4 shots, barrel was very warm, no signs of pressure all at.

Last five groups were all under 1/2 MOA. Granted that's only a two shot group but it's promising. Berger says max powder of 39.5 grains with RL-16. However with no pressure signs how far can I safely go? I'd like to hit the next node and really get it dialed. While maintaining the highest velocity possible.

Thanks.
PGohil
WV

 

[Kurz]

I had this in my notes from some of the testing I did a while back:

"The clear favorite overall is the CCI #450 Small Rifle Magnum Primer … by a huge margin. As I mentioned in a previous post, the CCI #450 is a magnum primer, but from what I heard it produces some extremely low standard deviations (SD) in muzzle velocity, meaning the ammo is extremely consistent shot-to-shot. I’ve also heard that magnum primer doesn’t show signs of pressure as quickly as some of the other softer primers, so guys might be able to run slightly higher pressures with it. I can’t say for sure why so many of these shooters prefer it, but the data clearly shows they do."

Then I was checking the results from some of the PRS competition information and saw a consistent trend towards SR primers for the 130/140 grain combinations. Well, I don't necessarily agree with all these SR primers since my testing was done with Fed 210s and CCI 200s where the brass had large primer pockets. I also was using Re-17 since I've always had good luck with it here on the desert.

 

[wedgy]

Guys have been getting up to 3,000 fps with Reloder 26 in the 6.5x284 and .260 as well as getting top velocity from the 140 in the CM. It was gone but RL26 has started showing up again. Have you run the ballistics to see how fast you need to run the 156 to have an advantage over the 140 class bullets ?

 

[PD Gohil]

i have not ran the ballistics like that, no. in fact, im such a novice at this, i dont even know how to do that.
This setup is for steel out to 1000, and hunting to 600, so bullet composition is important.

 

[Hohn]

Two shots isn't a group. But the useful information you DID gather is found in the relatively constant velocity at the 39.1-39.5 area. You had one of your 39.1 shots go faster than a 39.5 shot. That suggest you might be a node where the speed isn't very sensitive to charge weight.

But with only two shots per sample, I hate to say that the data is not worth much.

 

[bozo699]

Just a side note for fouling shots you should use the bullets and powder your doing your testing with.
Wayne

 

[PD Gohil]

Two shots isn't a group. But the useful information you DID gather is found in the relatively constant velocity at the 39.1-39.5 area. You had one of your 39.1 shots go faster than a 39.5 shot. That suggest you might be a node where the speed isn't very sensitive to charge weight.
.

But with only two shots per sample, I hate to say that the data is not worth much.

You are absolutely right, it doesn't show much, but it's a place to start. My original question is is how far could I /should I go with adding charge weight.

There is no published data for this bullet at this time. So calling berger and getting what they are saying is safe is the only option at 39.5 Max. I've seen posts where people are shooting up to 42 as high as 43 grains in this load. Which I'm sure is a compressed load.

I want to eat out as much speed as I can for obvious reasons without showing signs of pressure. Hence if I could find the next node, the stars should align.


@bozo699 , thanks for the info. I didn't know that. I figured it was a good way to use that factory ammo and not my reloading components

 

[Hohn]

If you want to push those bullets as fast you can safely, then perhaps a different powder and OAL might be appropriate. RL16 is my favorite 6.5 powder, but it's possible the 156 is heavy enough that one step slower might be appropriate. H4831c instead of H4350, or RL23 instead of RL16.

If you have the freebore to run the OALs a bit longer, it should relieve a little pressure and free up some case capacity. Just stay clear of the lands. My experience is that with common 6.5 powders, you hit pressure before you run out of case capacity. That suggests there might be some additional speed available in slower powders. RL26 is known to be rocket fuel in the 6.5 if you can find some.

 

[wedgy]

Just plug your numbers in;

https://bergerbullets.com/ballistics-calculator/

FYI a buddy ran N560 up to 45.5 grain w/ a drop tube giving ~2,750 fps from a 27" barrel, work up slow.

 

[PD Gohil]

Just plug your numbers in;

https://bergerbullets.com/ballistics-calculator/

FYI a buddy ran N560 up to 45.5 grain w/ a drop tube giving ~2,750 fps from a 27" barrel, work up slow.

I'm not sure how this will help me. I can get a dope and velocity for whatever range I want with a lot of different calculators. However what I want to know is is how much powder I can safely stuff in this before I see pressure.

at this point the only thing I know to do is to start creeping up and point two grain increments until I see the first sign of pressure and then back off of that to the closest node.

 

[Bc'z]

I'm liking 39gr in your test.
As mentioned above, If you can find RL26 I think this is where you might find your joy.
My 143eldx load out of a 22" barrel is 100fps faster than data you listed with the hornady factory ammo.
Another powder I want to try is IMR7828SSC it falls on the burn chart real close to RL26.

 

[Steve Ladino]

I'm not sure how this will help me. I can get a dope and velocity for whatever range I want with a lot of different calculators. However what I want to know is is how much powder I can safely stuff in this before I see pressure.

at this point the only thing I know to do is to start creeping up and point two grain increments until I see the first sign of pressure and then back off of that to the closest node.

Good idea , what do you consider the first sign of pressure ? pressure is not a bad thing but to much is.

 

[wedgy]

I'm not sure how this will help me
QUOTE]
Run the numbers for the 140 and the 156 to the ranges you will be shooting and see if the drops are worth it. You may have to be past ~1,400 yards before the slower 156 catches up to a 140 class bullet. Run the 140 at 2900 fps(pick your rifles speed) and run the 156 at 2700 and compare the velocities, drops, and wind. Most have not found the 156 to have an advantage in the CM, be it powder choice, barrel length, etc.
There are many ways pressure shows up and some are not so noticeable. I think you want to read up on this before you continue.
There are MANY articles, search "pressure signs in reloading" or similar;
http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2011/04/evaluating-pressure-signs-in-reloaded-cartridge-brass/
https://www.google.com/search?sourc...Uv54KHfglApAQ4dUDCAw&uact=5#spf=1586283876849

 

[10XSHOOTER]

Your 156 bullet is way too heavy for a Creedmoor. At the velocity your getting. You might as well shoot a .308 with a 175gr bullet.
Creedmoor case size works well with a 130 gr bullet. You can get enough velocity to make the BC's work.

 

[PD Gohil]

Good idea , what do you consider the first sign of pressure ? pressure is not a bad thing but to much is.

As previously stated, I am brand new to the reloading game and very much so a novice.

What I see at signs of pressure are: cratering, flattened primers ejector marks and heavy bolt lifts.

Another thing to think about is I am shooting this suppressed which should actually create more pressure from my understanding.

 

[Steve Ladino]

As previously stated, I am brand new to the reloading game and very much so a novice.

What I see at signs of pressure are: cratering, flattened primers ejector marks and heavy bolt lifts.

Another thing to think about is I am shooting this suppressed which should actually create more pressure from my understanding.

I think you have a variety of pressure concerns there. Heavy bolt lift would definitely be a severe warning of very dangerously high pressure. Some cratering can be caused by excess room around the firing pin at the bolt face , faint ejector marks are not a real sign of over pressure and I wouldn't go down to a lower node if that accompanied an accurate load, flattened primers are sometimes an indicator of pressure but not always. In your case consider that over pressure until you become more familiar with your gun and loads. Most reloading manual data is quite conservative. I have found that loads near or at the Maximum listed are the best. Start lower than Max.

 

[PD Gohil]

I think you have a variety of pressure concerns there. Heavy bolt lift would definitely be a severe warning of very dangerously high pressure. Some cratering can be caused by excess room around the firing pin at the bolt face , faint ejector marks are not a real sign of over pressure and I wouldn't go down to a lower node if that accompanied an accurate load, flattened primers are sometimes an indicator of pressure but not always. In your case consider that over pressure until you become more familiar with your gun and loads. Most reloading manual data is quite conservative. I have found that loads near or at the Maximum listed are the best. Start lower than Max.

Thanks for your reply. If you look I did start well under Max and work my way up to it. This is an unpublished load due to a new bullet. I believe burger is being very conservative in their numbers. I'm going to ladder test .2 grains at a time until I begin to see signs of pressure. At that point I'll see where the closest node is and work that.

 

[Webster]

Two shots isn't a group. But the useful information you DID gather is found in the relatively constant velocity at the 39.1-39.5 area. You had one of your 39.1 shots go faster than a 39.5 shot. That suggest you might be a node where the speed isn't very sensitive to charge weight.

But with only two shots per sample, I hate to say that the data is not worth much.

Nothing to do with a node. It totally ignores the fact that there is an ES with the same load. If both loads have an ES of 5-15 or whatever there is overlap.

 

[Steve Ladino]

Thanks for your reply. If you look I did start well under Max and work my way up to it. This is an unpublished load due to a new bullet. I believe burger is being very conservative in their numbers. I'm going to ladder test .2 grains at a time until I begin to see signs of pressure. At that point I'll see where the closest node is and work that.

You're welcome.