Ouch!
Fired vs Virgin velocity issue's
- Thread starter rhovee
- Start date
If I was going to load new cases and then fire them I would fire them and then eject once fired cases. But if I had any grand plan on the result I would measure the length of the new cases from the shoulder/datum to the case head first. I would load and then fire them and measure the length of the fired cases from the shoulder/datum to the case head again and then compare. I would not claim I measured, I would publish the measurements; The OP claimed he moved the shoulder back .002". I understand everyone reading on this forum assumes the chamber is .002" longer than a minimum length/full length sized case and the sized cases is the same length as the new cases from the shoulder to the case head.
If that were true it is safe to say he has a short chamber and I always wonder why no one ever aske a reloader how he manages to move the shoulder back .002". I can shorten a case from the shoulder to the case head .002", I have never managed to move the shoulder back.
And then there is that thing with 40 fps spread. I will have to assume he shot the new cases with 'O' spread and then sized the fired cases an got a spread of 40 fps.
Back to ouch: My fire forming load became the maximum load for a 200 grain bullet after the case was formed to the chamber. And Hodgdon said it could be over max. I formed those cases once. The only problem? was during the forming and fire forming process the case shortened .045" from the end of the neck to the case head.
And then there was something else no one would notice: The firing pin did not drive the shoulder forward to the shoulder of the chamber.
F. Guffey
When the case expanded to the chamber the shoulder on my case became part of the case body, part of the neck became part of the shoulder. When the case expanded the neck was pulled back; meaning the case length shortened from the end of the neck to the case head but the length of the case from the shoulder to the case head lengthen.
F. Guffey
So what did you do to solve the problem?
J
He is the solution, in search of a problem. None of the “shooters” I know have the problems he’s ALWAYS talking about, you know the same 6-7 posts he has over and over and over again. Nobody I know competes in reloading contests, they compete in shooting contests. I guess that’s why he can never back up his claims, post a picture or find him on a match report.
Problem? I never perceived there was a problem; I knew the cases had to be formed and then fire formed. I knew in the forming process the case would shorten from the end of the neck to the case head and I knew if the case did not shorten the case would began case head separation between the case head and case body.
Later R-P made cylinder brass for the 35 Whelen, cylinder brass was a straight wall case that was 2.650 long from the mouth of the case to the case head. The cylinder brass case was perfect for anyone forming cases for wildcat cases that used the 30/06 as a parent case.
Two chambers: Many wildcat chambers were cut from the parent chamber; sometimes considered a mistake for what should be obvious; when forming and fire forming the case shortens. I believe that is a bad habit because I want my case to cover the chamber; back to problem, a 280 Remington cases was a better choice because it is .041" longer than the 30/06 from the end of the neck to the case head and is 051" longer than the 30.06 from the shoulder/datum to the case head.
The other chamber: Start with a blank and or move the barrel back to remove the original chamber; meaning the wildcat reamer will not remove all of the original chamber. There are times the finish chamber will have 2 different neck diameters. AS IN: 7mm57 to 280 Remington and an 8/MM to a magnum (not 8mm57).
And then there was that rush to go from 308W to 30/06.
F. Guffey
I missed the rush from 308 to 30/06! When did that happen?
It happened to a lot of good men, the 30/06 chamber reamer will not clean up a 308 W chamber. The 308 W case is larger in diameter at the case body shoulder juncture by as much as .014". When the 308 W chamber is cut to 30/06 the 308W shoulder/case body juncture remains meaning the reamer does not clean up the chamber. When the owner of the rifle takes the new creation to the range and fires 30/06 ammo in the new creation the case forms to the chamber.
When he examines his cases he will discover a ring around his case that is an artifact of the old chamber. I was setting at a table at the local gun show when a man walks up and said he was told I could help him with a problem. He purchased a 308 NATO 7.62 rifle, he claimed after someone worked on it the ring around the case appeared and no one knew what caused the problem and or knew how to fix it. I had to ask who did the work, I found it was a good friend that cut the chamber. I explained to the owner what happened and I told him he had to go back with another barrel or go to a 30/06 Ackley Improved chamber.
At one time there were 308W Mauser barrels available but they did not last long because they were new barrels and there were special heavy barrels.
F. Guffey
So what I'm hearing is you threw your friend under the bus..
I do not have one standard for you and another standard for another member. For my friend replacing the barrel would have been easy had the chamber been an 8mm57 or a 7mm57. I was at his shop looking for gun parts, at the time a customer walked in to have the head space checked on a magnificent rifle, my friend told the proud owner he did not have a gage for that particular chamber. I said nothing but when the proud owner of the magnificent rifle left I told my friend I can check the length of any chamber from the shoulder to the bolt face three different ways without a head space gage. Rather than get rude, silly or giggly he asked "HOW?" With tools he had within reach I showed him; and he said "I'll be dammed, I would never have thought that possible".
He did not check the diminutions of the chamber before he decided to go from 308W to 30/06, another friend decided to go from an exotic 8mm to 8MM338 Magnum. Before they let one of the rifles out of the shop he test fired them. During test firing he discovered his finished chamber had two different neck diameters, the original 8MM chamber had a generous neck. I know; all he had to do was shorten the barrel but the barrel could not be cut any shorter. It was about that time they all started checking dimensions and or asking for information.
And then you assume my friend did not tell his customer to have me check the rifle.
F. Guffey
Forgive, it all started when the Israeli 7.62 Mausers started to be shipped over here, and then? The south American countries got involved and while they had the reamers and 30 barrels they started converting older Mausers. I have an Argentine 91 that is chambered to 308 W. Another old friend: I asked him what he used it for and he said he used it for a loaner, he said when a hunter showed up without a rifle he loaned the 91 to him. I started collecting parts from other friends and found enough stuff to build 4 rifles and or 3 shotguns. and then? I removed the stock, thought about it and then put it back together.
F. Guffey
I thought we were talking about Rhovve and the 30 Nosler?
He was probably a little ticked off by then!
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