Fired Brass prep., Sticky Bolt lock?

[Michigan Chris]

Regards, Somewhat new to reloading and working out the bugs a bit. Just returned from the range and have twice fired Nosler 7mm RSAUM Brass. With the first firing I did not have any problem with a sticky bolt, either during the unload of a fired case or when trying to prep. the brass for the second reload. After the second firing, I have several HOT cases that fit into the chamber with no problem, but when I attempt to close the Bolt I am experiencing a very sticky bolt, quite a bit of pressure is needed to lock the bolt? I realize this is fire formed but MY QUESTION IS, " 1.how much of a "sticky bolt is acceptable?

2. How much bolt resistance do I want from fire formed Brass compared to new brass?

3. I am using a redding full length Bushing re-sizer, and have attempted to slightly turn the die down in very very small increments to size the brass but am still getting some resistance, and I am almost bottomed out? But the Brass is easier to load and close the bolt but not as easy as unfired or once fired brass. "Back to my question" how much of a sticky bolt is acceptable/do I want?

The brass that is causing this is at the upper end of my MAX loads but is shooting the best?

Thank you, and any help would be greatly appreciated.

Best regards, Chris.
_______

 

[Forum Boss]

Chris,
I mostly shoot 6mmBR and I full-length size my cases every firing with a Redding non-bushing die with honed neck. I set my die to "bump" the shoulder .0015 so that the bolt swings down with very, very slightly more effort than new brass.

Sticky Bolt Closure
Answering your question, I don't think ANY amount of "sticky" bolt movement is desirable when closing the bolt on a sized, reloaded cartridge in your chamber. By that I mean you should NOT feel a lot of resistance more than you'd feel with new brass and the bullet seated into the rifling. (A Bullet seated into the rifling will give you some resitance to bolt closure).

Sticky Bolt Opening (after firing)
Now as to how much sticky lift is acceptable after the cartridge is fired, you will find many opinions. You certainly don't want so much added effort that it upsets the gun on the bag. And if you really have to work to get the bolt open that can be a sign (not the only one though) that your load is too hot. I cannot speak for the guys shooting the big boomers. I note that many 50 BMG shooters keep a rubber mallet to open their bolts!

Hammering a bolt open seems extreme, but different cartridge designs (and different actions), may exhibit varying amounts of "Stiffness" at the same nominal pressures.

 

[Michigan Chris]

Thank you Sir,

Subsequently, I have just returned from my reloading bench and I am extremely puzzled? The Nosler Brass which is causing the bolt closures to be a bit "sticky" estimated 2 to 2.5 times harder to close than unfired brass, is not getting easier to close after resizing? I set the Redding full-length resizing die to factory instructions, of touching the shell holder, then 1/4 turn backed off. Well I did so and painstaking returned the die in minuet increments until it bottomed out touching the shell holder and the BRASS was still causing the bolt to take (at the very least twice the pressure to close than unfired Brass???????????0 I need direction in this matter. I really do not want to disguard twice fired Brass, especially the NOSLER $$$$$.

Thank you very much & my best,

Going crazy in Michigan, Chris.

 

[Kings X]

Try the brass in the action as soon as it comes out of the press after resizing.
If "sticky" then - could be 1. overall length not correct for chamber - not likey.
Or 2. Needs shoulder bumped back more. Grind some of the top of the shellholder off - about .005-010". And keep trying and adjusting - just as you do before. UNTIL THE BOLT JUST CLOSES with little effort.
I have heard that some of the cases are "springing back" after sizing due to hardening of the neck. They say that annealing will solve the problem.
--
If "sticky" is after seating bullet - look for too long seating or no clearance in neck.
--
You said that you turned the brass. Check neck clearance by trying to drop a bullet into the fired case. Should drop with little or no resistance.

 

[fayettefatts]

I agree with Kings X that your shoulder may need bumped back more.

When you say:

I set the Redding full-length resizing die to factory instructions, of touching the shell holder, then 1/4 turn backed off.

do you mean you back the die off (loosen it) or do you mean you back the ram down and tighten the die another 1/4 turn? Tightening the die a little more than just touching may help.

 

[fguffey]

"Back to my question" how much of a sticky bolt is acceptable/do I want?

I will never understand why the question is not “If my press, die and shell holder is designed to size the case, how can I tell if the press, die and shell holder worked as designed before removing the the case from the press/shell holder? or “Why is it, after sizing and seating, I find the bolt is difficult to close?”

After all, by design the shell holder with the .125 deck height combined with the die is designed to size a case (back to minimum length-and that is the simplest of layman of terms is full length sizing*) .005 shorter from the head of the case to the shoulder of the case when compared to a go-gage length chamber (30/06). For reloaders the deck height is just nice to know, for me? it is another gage, it is another tool, I do not have one brand of shell holders because I find different uses for shell holders that are different.

*It is possible reloaders have not grasp that concept, it is possible jump back, pop back, snap back or spring back has hung them up.

F. Guffey

 

[BoydAllen]

Chris,
You are flying blind. Get one of the Hornady tools that attaches to calipers (dial or digital) that allows you to accurately measure shoulder bump, then set your die to bump cases' shoulders .002 or a little less and see what your bolt closing force is like. Here is a link that will take you to the product listing on Hornady's web site.
http://www.hornady.com/store/Headspace-Gauge-Kits
You need the kit with the body. It is a basic piece of reloading equipment that everyone needs.
Be sure to remove the primer or reseat it, before measuring the a fired case before sizing. When you are dealing with such small differences in length, a small crater on the primer, or any primer protrusion will make your measurement significantly inaccurate.
Boyd

 

[in2deep]

Boyd's tip will get you on the right track of measuring and not just guessing since one or two thousandth's of bump is a small amount to guess just right. In essence you need to screw the die down in 1/4 turn or less increments while sizing the case until it is about 2 thousandth's of an inch shorter than it was after you fired it (you need to measure this) and they call this bumping the shoulder back which will allow you to rechamber the round with no bolt resistance.
Many folks do it without the micrometer and just keep screwing in the die till the round chambers easy but like Boyd said this may get you by but is just guessing how far you are moving the shoulder back and if you overdo it the brass will wear out faster since it's being flexed too much so they like to keep the bump back around .002".

A weird thing will happen your first time measuring this bump as the shoulder length will actually "increase" a little as you start sizing the case since when the sides get squeezed back in from the die on the way in it also can LENGHTHEN the case a bit (like squeezing a balloon) until it finally hits the top of the die and is forced back down so keep measuring the whole process for the first couple times till you get a handle on it otherwise you can be making matters worse by only partially resizing the case and elongating the brass compounding your problem.

 

[ordnancemarine]

+1 for what Boyd said... you need to know the amount your bumping back those shoulders... Bolt stick can ruin you bolt very quickly... Annealing your cases is also recommended as well.

 

[jcampbellsmith]

+1 on Boyd's feedback.

http://www.hornady.com/assets/files/catalog/2009/69-70_precision_gauges.pdf

To help fine tune the locking ring on the resizing die, I put a paint mark on the threads and locking ring. I then can see if the die has moved in or out with respect to the locking ring.

Good luck. JCS

 

[SS427]

Take Boyd's advice. He is right, you are flying blind unless you can measure the shoulder bump.

I had a similar problem with a Remington model 700 .223 Remington. I kept adjusting the die down but it never fixed the problem. I assumed the die was off, but in reality I ended up bumping the shoulder back way more than I needed to cause I wasn't able to measure it. I discovered that after I bought the Hornady tool. Come to find out the extractor didn't have enough clearance and the sticky feeling was the extractor being forced over the rim.

 

[GrocMax]

The RCBS gauges are also handy for things like this, measure several fired cases, set die to bump back 2-3 thou, done. And if you hone the bullet seating gauge to the right diameter it works pretty darned good on any style ogive bullet (they make the hole too small IMHO). Also works on wildcats if you look up some reamer prints and use your noggin, for instance the 243 gauge becomes a 6XC, 6-250, 6x47 etc. with the addition of a spacer, 204 gauge becomes a 20 Prac, 20 Tac, etc.

Anyways, some simple observation should pinpoint the problem area, takes no more than about 15 seconds and a magic marker. Mark the base, entire shoulder, neck, and the very top rim of the case, attempt to close bolt. Remove. Shiny spots are where, and none of it counts if the base of the case didn't get wiped by the rotating bolt face.

 

[bighorn06]

Chris, I shoot the 7 SAUM and Boyd gave the best explanation. A properly re sized case should chamber as easy as a new one. You mentioned hot loads. Keep checking the base diameter above the rim. If it grows to .549 thousants you are too hot. Mike

 

[Michigan Chris]

Thanks Boys,

Looks like I will be purchasing a Lock-n-load gauge afterall. I agree, I am flying blind and need to get this stuff measured to be exact. Any opinions on resizing LUBE? It was mentioned to me that some is not as effective as others? Anyway, I have the goods, so I will be following through with a gauge.
Everybody has been a tremendous help and I sincerely value you assistance.

Best Regards, Chris.

 

[GrocMax]

The go-to lube for tough to work cases is Imperial wax, and it takes very little to get the job done.

 

[BoydAllen]

I find that RCBS Case Lube II is handy, because it is water soluble. I apply all lubes in a thin coating with my fingers. If you are changing lubes, I would put a little on a Q tip and lightly coat the inside of the die (body portion only). I have seen problems happen when changing from one type to another, if they are very different.

 

[fguffey]

http://squibloads.wordpress.com/reloading/lock-rings/

Again, I adjust my dies every time I use one, I adjust my die to the shell holder either TO or BELOW or OFF. Vocabulary or definition of terms are necessary to convey an ideal and or thought, some like picture.

Full length sizing & minimum length are, to the Greek ‘iso’, ‘iso’ terms, in English, when translated, means ‘SAME-O’ ‘SAME-‘O’. Minimum length ammo is the ammo that is purchased new, over the counter, factory unfired, minimum length ammo chambers, it fits in the chamber where ever/anywhere it touches, when fired the case is ejected.

Problem, the reloader has a press, die and shell holder with accessories like lube and instructions that are either not understood or ignored but when the die is adjusted down to the shell holder with an additional 1/4 to 1/2 additional turn after contact, the press, die and shell holder is adjusted for full length sizing which means to restore the case to minimum length, if anyone is listening, minimum length is the same as the new, store bought, over the counter factor unfired ammo.

I would think it unfair if the reloading manufactures sold me equipment that allows me to determine if the case whipped the press or if the press whipped the case.

Going the other way, the case will not chamber or the case will chamber with resistance, logic says the case is larger than the chamber. Applying the same logic, the press, die and shell holder, as a unit is adjusted to full length size to minimum length, the ram is up, the handle has traveled full arch, AND, there is a load applied, then, pressure is released, the ram is lowered, the case that was supposed to be full length sized to minimum length is removed from the shell holder, and when chambered, will not allow the to bolt close or it will not allow the bolt to close with out resistance.

If, in your possession there is a die that will not full length size a case to minimum length when used with a shell holder that has a deck height of .125, you are entitled to get your money back:

WHAT I AM TRYING TO SAY, IF YOU CAN NOT DETERMINE WHAT IS CAUSING THE PROBLEM AS IN : DIE, PRESS SHELL HOLDER OR CASE, AND IF YOU CAN NOT DETERMINE IF THE ‘UNIT’ FAILED TO SIZE THE CASE TO MINIMUM LENGTH BEFORE ATTEMPTING TO CHAMBER WHERE DO YOU GO FOR HELP IN SOLVING THE PROBLEM?

The die and shell holder, as a chamber is smaller than the chamber created between the face of the bolt and shoulder of the chamber, yet? the case, after sizing to minimum length will not chamber?

F. Guffey

Top of the page, a link, I had nothing to do with contributing to the content, but, there are those that secure the lock ring to the die, I secure the die to the press with the lock ring, and that is strange and or foreign to everyone, even though two of the 5 rings do not have set screws, deductive reasoning would say the manufacturer designed the lock ring to secure the die to the press and not the other way around. And in the old days Pacific had an integral nut on the top of the die to maintain adjustment while securing the lock nut, JUST LIKE DILLON DIES TODAY, something about the incline plain that escapes some.

 

[bozo699]

http://squibloads.wordpress.com/reloading/lock-rings/

Again, I adjust my dies every time I use one, I adjust my die to the shell holder either TO or BELOW or OFF. Vocabulary or definition of terms are necessary to convey an ideal and or thought, some like picture.

Full length sizing & minimum length are, to the Greek ‘iso’, ‘iso’ terms, in English, when translated, means ‘SAME-O’ ‘SAME-‘O’. Minimum length ammo is the ammo that is purchased new, over the counter, factory unfired, minimum length ammo chambers, it fits in the chamber where ever/anywhere it touches, when fired the case is ejected.

Problem, the reloader has a press, die and shell holder with accessories like lube and instructions that are either not understood or ignored but when the die is adjusted down to the shell holder with an additional 1/4 to 1/2 additional turn after contact, the press, die and shell holder is adjusted for full length sizing which means to restore the case to minimum length, if anyone is listening, minimum length is the same as the new, store bought, over the counter factor unfired ammo.

I would think it unfair if the reloading manufactures sold me equipment that allows me to determine if the case whipped the press or if the press whipped the case.

Going the other way, the case will not chamber or the case will chamber with resistance, logic says the case is larger than the chamber. Applying the same logic, the press, die and shell holder, as a unit is adjusted to full length size to minimum length, the ram is up, the handle has traveled full arch, AND, there is a load applied, then, pressure is released, the ram is lowered, the case that was supposed to be full length sized to minimum length is removed from the shell holder, and when chambered, will not allow the to bolt close or it will not allow the bolt to close with out resistance.

If, in your possession there is a die that will not full length size a case to minimum length when used with a shell holder that has a deck height of .125, you are entitled to get your money back:

WHAT I AM TRYING TO SAY, IF YOU CAN NOT DETERMINE WHAT IS CAUSING THE PROBLEM AS IN : DIE, PRESS SHELL HOLDER OR CASE, AND IF YOU CAN NOT DETERMINE IF THE ‘UNIT’ FAILED TO SIZE THE CASE TO MINIMUM LENGTH BEFORE ATTEMPTING TO CHAMBER WHERE DO YOU GO FOR HELP IN SOLVING THE PROBLEM?

The die and shell holder, as a chamber is smaller than the chamber created between the face of the bolt and shoulder of the chamber, yet? the case, after sizing to minimum length will not chamber?

F. Guffey

Top of the page, a link, I had nothing to do with contributing to the content, but, there are those that secure the lock ring to the die, I secure the die to the press with the lock ring, and that is strange and or foreign to everyone, even though two of the 5 rings do not have set screws, deductive reasoning would say the manufacturer designed the lock ring to secure the die to the press and not the other way around. And in the old days Pacific had an integral nut on the top of the die to maintain adjustment while securing the lock nut, JUST LIKE DILLON DIES TODAY, something about the incline plain that escapes some.

Totally 100% unquestionably AMAZING!!!
Wayne.

 

[BoydAllen]

Back in the day, when I was a regular in the back room of a local gunsmith's shop, fellows who shot belted magnums used to talk about why they thought that their cases would only last a few firings. The thought was that it was because of the "magnum pressures". They didn't have a clue it was because they were bumping their cases' shoulders way too far back, by adjusting their dies according to the manufacturers instructions. None of us had a tool to measure this. The only one that was available was by Wilson, and they didn't know that they needed one. The SAAMI standard for the maximum size of loaded factory ammunition is smaller than their minimum chamber for any given caliber, BUT there is no headspace for the for the shoulder to head dimension for belted cases (since they headspace off of the belt). Most of the belted cases that I have measured had their shoulders' blown forward about.021 forward on initial firing. Sometimes screwing the die down all the way is a very bad idea.

 

[fguffey]

“I adjust my die to the shell holder either TO or BELOW or OFF” every time. I determine the length of the chamber first then adjust the die to size cases to fit the chamber.

"....for the shoulder to head dimension for belted cases (since they headspace off of the belt). Most of the belted cases that I have measured had their shoulders' blown forward about.021 forward on initial firing. Sometimes screwing the die down all the way is a very bad idea"

When the case was fired, the shoulder did not move, is was erased and a new shoulder was formed, but that was not the question or the problem, the question that is being ignored is why, after sizing, does a full length sized cases not chamber. And I am wondering why reloaders can not determine if the case has been successfully sized before lowering the ram. If the length of the case increases .021 thousands and in fact the shoulder moved forward on the first firing the shooter is luck he did not have case head separation, and if he mindlessly full length sized the case after the case is formed, yes case life will be shortened. And, again, Hatcher moved the shoulder forward .080 thousands, I have fired 8mm57 in an 8mm06 chamber with the shoulder ahead of the 8mm57 .125, I ejected 8mm06 cases with very short necks. Hatcher ejected 30/06 Hatcher Modified cases.

Not easy to have it both ways as in the case locking to the chamber while the head of the case is driven back against the bolt face and the shoulder being driven forward.

F. Guffey