Fire forming virgin needs help...

[thefitter]

I admit it...I'm a fire forming virgin. :

Can some of you more experienced, dare I even say skilled gentleman please walk me through the fire forming process?

I want to take Lapua .22-250 and fire form it to 6.5mm creedmoor

Thanks

 

[Pres100]

I have done it with 22-250 to 6xc and it ws pretty simple. It consisted of setting up the 6cx die in the press as normal ( it has a tapered expander button that expands neck to 6 mm) and then then run it through the die a normal. Case gets slightly deformed as the shoulder dimensions are changed. Prime, charge with powder and seat bullet. Ready to fire (still very accurate). When round is ejected, the case is fire formed to the chamber.
That's all that was required for 6xc. It might take more than one fire forming to complete.

Not sure if going up to 6.5 requires any intermediate steps or sizing, but I would think it would make it to 6.5 mm.

 

[spclark]

22-250's OAL is 1.9079" w/shoulder dia. of 0.4142" @ 1.515" from the base.

6.5 C'moor's 1.920" w/shoulder dia. of 0.4620" @ 1.490" from the base.

6XC's 1.898" w/shoulder dia. of 0.4505" @ 1.4544" from the base.

As with making 6XC you'll need to push the shoulder back first while also opening up the neck.

Fire-forming to blow the case out to the new shoulder diameter will likely shorten the OAL some.

You're starting with a case that's already shorter than where you want to end up, a different situation than with making 6XC.

This ought to work but be mindful of finished case OAL once you're done. I'd also suggest annealing shoulders and necks after forming the new shoulders before opening up the necks or you may risk neck splits. Necks will thin some too, probably ~ 0.002" from the expansion.

(I've made 6XC from 22-250 and Lapua's Palma 308 brass both. Guess which is the easiest?)

 

[thefitter]

22-250's OAL is 1.9079" w/shoulder dia. of 0.4142" @ 1.515" from the base.
..You're starting with a case that's already shorter than where you want to end up, a different situation than with making 6XC.


(I've made 6XC from 22-250 and Lapua's Palma 308 brass both. Guess which is the easiest?)

I did not know that, I just read that guys were making 6.5 creedmoor brass from 22-250

Any better choices for a brass size to start with and end up with proper OAL?

Thanks

 

[spclark]

I'd go ahead and try a few, see just how far off the published C'moor COL you end up.

If it's within 0.005" things should work out fine. If it's more like 0.030" it'll still work but later on when you find & use factory C'more brass you may have pressure issues from a build-up of powder residue in the chamber neck because of the shorter brass.

I'd probably look at using 260 REM brass next: 2.035" OAL, 1.5598" base to 0.4539" dia. shoulder.

At least you'd be starting with a case already necked for 6.5mm that's longer than your target dimension. May be as simple as push the shoulder back & trim... but with a LR primer pocket.

Monitor neck thickness though as some brands' shoulder brass is thicker than the necks. The suggested operation could lead to too-thick necks without neck turning somewhere along the line.

Making 6XC out of Lapua's Palma brass takes 20+ steps & maybe 15 minutes each. Starting from 22-250 it's more like 3 & 1 before fire-forming....

 

[artbosco]

I admit it...I'm a fire forming virgin. Can some of you more experienced, dare I even say skilled gentleman please walk me through the fire forming process? I want to take Lapua .22-250 and fire form it to 6.5mm creedmoor. Thanks

Keep life simple. Save the 22-250 brass for the 22-250 or sell it to someone who can use it as is. Purchase some of these, reload them, then fireform [full load, moderate jam, slightly lube the outside of the case just once, go fire]: http://www.midwayusa.com/product/528000/hornady-reloading-brass-65-creedmoor-box-of-50 Reloading and shooting is suppose to be fun.

 

[Eddie Harren]

You may find, contrary to some of the "expert" advice you'll get here, that the Lapua is by far better brass than the Hornady. Many people actually enjoy the work that it takes to re-form brass and prep it for their rifles.

 

[spclark]

Purchase some of these, reload them, then fireform....

I'd have to agree if they're available. All the tough work's done, these are "load & shoot."

One suggestion: keep your first couple loads on the mild side. I've found this helps "harden" case heads against premature pocket stretching.

 

[thefitter]

You may find, contrary to some of the "expert" advice you'll get here, that the Lapua is by far better brass than the Hornady. Many people actually enjoy the work that it takes to re-form brass and prep it for their rifles.

I would tend to agree after reloading Hornady brass in .308, unless the Hornady 6.5 creedmoor brass is somehow better. And I have no problem putting in a little extra work if the results are more consistent.

Thanks

 

[thefitter]

I'd probably look at using 260 REM brass next: 2.035" OAL, 1.5598" base to 0.4539" dia. shoulder.

At least you'd be starting with a case already necked for 6.5mm that's longer than your target dimension. May be as simple as push the shoulder back & trim... but with a LR primer pocket.

Thank you. If I could use .260 lapua brass that would be great!! Could you please explain the steps and equipment needed in detail?

I have not purchased any dies for 6.5 CM yet. I intended to get a Lee collet for the neck sizing, and a Redding FL body die.

 

[spclark]

If I could use .260 lapua brass that would be great!! Could you please explain the steps and equipment needed in detail?

I have not purchased any dies for 6.5 CM yet. I intended to get a Lee collet for the neck sizing, and a Redding FL body die.

The Redding body die ought to be enough to start. The neck stays the same so pushing the shoulder back (0.1054") and reshaping the shoulder angle (sharper 30* from the 260's 20*) can be done with the die started well backed off. You'll need to trim cases too (0.137" at least) so a good case trimmer is needed.

I like the Wilson system myself, but with that much metal to remove a fine-toothed jeweler's saw will save time & blistered fingers from spinning the cutter handle.

 

[thefitter]

If I could use .260 lapua brass that would be great!! Could you please explain the steps and equipment needed in detail?

I have not purchased any dies for 6.5 CM yet. I intended to get a Lee collet for the neck sizing, and a Redding FL body die.

The Redding body die ought to be enough to start. The neck stays the same so pushing the shoulder back (0.1054") and reshaping the shoulder angle (sharper 30* from the 260's 20*) can be done with the die started well backed off. You'll need to trim cases too (0.137" at least) so a good case trimmer is needed.

I like the Wilson system myself, but with that much metal to remove a fine-toothed jeweler's saw will save time & blistered fingers from spinning the cutter handle.

I have a Giraud and a Wilson. I just need to get 6.5 CM case holders. And I will get a expander with the neck turning mandrel.

So what would be the sequence?

1) FL and push back the shoulder a bit.
2) Trim
3) repeat?

Thanks

 

[spclark]

I have a Giraud and a Wilson. I just need to get 6.5 CM case holders. And I will get a expander with the neck turning mandrel.

So what would be the sequence?

1) FL and push back the shoulder a bit.
2) Trim
3) repeat?

Never used a Giraud; does that index off the shoulder? So neck length is fixed by the cutterhead or case holder?

How much you need to trim depends on the die you use to move the shoulder back. Sometimes there's insufficient clearance with bushings to allow the neck to protrude enough. I had this issue when making 6HAGAR brass from .25/.30REM, which requires cutting about 0.300" off the necks.

You'll need lube too. Imperial sizing wax is the good stuff for reshaping brass. Avoid using too much or dimpled shoulders are likely.

During the shoulder push-back operation, run the ram in little steps after re-setting the die & rotate the case being sized a little in the shellholder between strokes. Maybe 4 or 5 incremental strokes with each 1/2 turn of the die downward until you're 0.005" away from your target base-to-shoulder dimension. Then complete your neck work, final size & trim then chamfer inside & out.

 

[thefitter]

I have a Giraud and a Wilson. I just need to get 6.5 CM case holders. And I will get a expander with the neck turning mandrel.

So what would be the sequence?

1) FL and push back the shoulder a bit.
2) Trim
3) repeat?

Never used a Giraud; does that index off the shoulder? Yes it does. So neck length is fixed by the cutterhead or case holder? Both.

How much you need to trim depends on the die you use to move the shoulder back. Sometimes there's insufficient clearance with bushings to allow the neck to protrude enough. I had this issue when making 6HAGAR brass from .25/.30REM, which requires cutting about 0.300" off the necks.

If I use a body die then this should not be a problem, right?

You'll need lube too. Imperial sizing wax is the good stuff for reshaping brass. Avoid using too much or dimpled shoulders are likely.

During the shoulder push-back operation, run the ram in little steps after re-setting the die & rotate the case being sized a little in the shellholder between strokes. Maybe 4 or 5 incremental strokes with each 1/2 turn of the die downward until you're 0.005" away from your target base-to-shoulder dimension. Then complete your neck work, final size & trim then chamfer inside & out.

Thank you. I'm actually glad that the Giraud is not suitable for this operation because for all my sensitive stuff I like to use the Wilson.

I'm going to throw another question at you...what if I wanted to use Lapua .308 Palma brass with the small rifle primer?

Where in this process would I reduce the neck diameter from .308 to .264?

Where would the neck turning or reaming fit in that sequence?

 

[artbosco]

I'd probably look at using 260 REM brass next: 2.035" OAL, 1.5598" base to 0.4539" dia. shoulder. At least you'd be starting with a case already necked for 6.5mm that's longer than your target dimension. May be as simple as push the shoulder back & trim... but with a LR primer pocket.

Thank you. If I could use .260 lapua brass that would be great!! Could you please explain the steps and equipment needed in detail?

I have not purchased any dies for 6.5 CM yet. I intended to get a Lee collet for the neck sizing, and a Redding FL body die.

No need for a neck sizing die. Purchase just a Redding Type S Full Length Bushing die and a few bushing. Use it each and every time you resize. The Redding Type S Full Length sizing die and a good Redding Micrometer seating die are all you'll ever need. They'll consistently return the entire case to the designers dimensions, apply proper neck tension and seat bullets to your specified length.

 

[spclark]

I'm going to throw another question at you...what if I wanted to use Lapua .308 Palma brass with the small rifle primer?

Where in this process would I reduce the neck diameter from .308 to .264?

Where would the neck turning or reaming fit in that sequence?

Rather than key in the answer (for the second time today) I'll point you to this thread:

http://forum.accurateshooter.com/index.php?topic=3827280.msg36297399#msg36297399

Yes, a body die ought to facilitate forming with less trimming. I'd start reducing the neck dia. pretty much with the first steps. You may not need to neck ream either, depending on what the diameter is of the neck portion of the sizing die you choose. Where I was doing 6XC the neck-thickening proved tricky because I was going down another 0.5mm. Where the Palma brass starts at 0.014" (+/-) it was approaching 0.0165" once I'd forced it to an OD of 0.275" & my goal was to work down to 0.012" neck thickness so something had to get cut away....

 

[thefitter]

I'm going to throw another question at you...what if I wanted to use Lapua .308 Palma brass with the small rifle primer?

Where in this process would I reduce the neck diameter from .308 to .264?

Where would the neck turning or reaming fit in that sequence?

Rather than key in the answer (for the second time today) I'll point you to this thread:

http://forum.accurateshooter.com/index.php?topic=3827280.msg36297399#msg36297399

Yes, a body die ought to facilitate forming with less trimming. I'd start reducing the neck dia. pretty much with the first steps. You may not need to neck ream either, depending on what the diameter is of the neck portion of the sizing die you choose. Where I was doing 6XC the neck-thickening proved tricky because I was going down another 0.5mm. Where the Palma brass starts at 0.014" (+/-) it was approaching 0.0165" once I'd forced it to an OD of 0.275" & my goal was to work down to 0.012" neck thickness so something had to get cut away....

Thanks.

I think I will start by using my .308 neck bushing die to reduce the neck some since I already have one of these. Then use the 6.5 CM body die to move the shoulder.

How much can I move the neck at one time? I assume I can't go straight to a .296 bushing on a .308 parent case. What increments do you recommend?

 

[thefitter]

Never mind I'll stick with the .260 for the parent case, I don't think I want to deal with some of the possible issues with small rifle primers right now.

Thanks

 

[spclark]

Other than availability I don't think there are issues with SR vs. LR primers unless perhaps you hunt / compete where temperatures get down to freezing or below.

In Palma loads and 6XC I've used both for the past three years. My preference is for SR for both now when possible.

I think you're wise to start with 260REM as you'll be moving less brass in all and that only when bumping the shoulder back.

Be prepared to use a 6.5mm expander mandrel on the newly-formed cases, then neck-turn. Often you get thicker necks out of what had been shoulder brass, the expander will push this to the outside to be cut away.

You'll gain useful experience and a "hands on" touch the better to move to the more challenging Palma brass later on.

Let me know how this goes for you.