Fire-forming Brass

[LHSmith]

Amazing that we got this far into the weekend keeping it civil. It will go downhill from here unless the Robert Redford lookalike has a few picnics to attend. BTW odd choice since redford is a flaming lib.

 

[bigedp51]

Amazing that we got this far into the weekend keeping it civil. It will go downhill from here unless the Robert Redford lookalike has a few picnics to attend. BTW odd choice since redford is a flaming lib.

Dear LHSmith

I regret to inform you that I'm recovering from arthroscopic knee surgery done last Tuesday. I will not be attending any picnics and I'm sitting in my recliner chair with a ice pack on my knee as I type this to keep the swelling down.

In plain English you should have made a wish to see Disneyworld because my backside will stay planted in this recliner and my laptop is plugged in next to me.

As a side note after discussing the matter of dmoron's addition in this posting with other forum members and also dealing with his threatening PM sent to me we have decided to change dmoron's screen name in this forum. dmoron's new screen name will be forever "bigrichardhead".

I would also add that your above posting contains no humor so therefore it must be considered uncivil and egotistical.
So please do not be another Richard Head and demoron's twin.

I will leave you with the following words of wisdom on lubing cases?

What were Tarzans last words?

"WHO GREASED THE GRAPEVINE"

P.S. LHSmith please read the book below..............................its going to be a very long weekend.

 

[South Pender]

Thanks, all. This has, if nothing else, been a hilarious read. Hard to determine whether there's any consensus, but a mid-range load (1-2 gr. below a manual max load) does seem to be the recommendation. Still unclear about whether a very light coat of oil on the cases is recommended.... :-\ It's not something I had known about. My thought had been to seat the bullets about .01" into the rifling to cause the right amount of back-thrust.

 

[BoydAllen]

I have shot a lot of .222. Just now, I measured a fired case from a factory rifle and compared it to a new Lapua case. The new case is .005 shorter, head to shoulder than the fired case. The rifle chamber is as near to minimum as I have come across. This difference is pretty typical for new brass of the rimless type, and has never caused a bit of trouble because any stretch that takes place is a one time event, given that I set my dies to bump shoulder .001 back from a tight case. Load your cases with whatever you rifle shoots best and shoot them. You are concerned about a non existent problem. The only advice that I would give is to chamfer the insides of the necks of new cases, and not trim trim them until after they have been fired. Another thing that might help is to run an expander mandrel through them before loading for the first time, to round out the necks and make the neck tension more uniform. Some cases come with quite a bit more neck tension than I like.

On the subject of bolt thrust, I have run across a few fellows that do not seem to get that pressure per square inch must be multiplied by the area that it is applied to to get the force against the bolt. If you section a case right at the head and use the ID to calculate the area, that is the number that you multiply the pressure in PSI by to get bolt thrust, with no reduction do to case body cling in the chamber. A little quick math should show you that actions that are strong enough for magnum cases and loads will never be overstressed by a book .222 load, lubed or not. On the other hand, I do not ever recommend lubing ammo, because I have never found it to be an advantage, and some percentage of those that read specific instructions will take instructions meant for a situation like making 6mm PPC brass out of .220 Russian, and use the same approach for the first firing of a BR case in a BR chamber, which is a totally different.

 

[Joe Salt]

I have to agree with Boyd, I would never Lube a case to fireform brass! Whats the hurry you think you'll wear out the barrel before your brass is completely formed. Some of my best groups have been shot with the first three firings on the brass. And like a drop of water, you put more on one side than the other you will end up with dents. Stay away from the SNAKE OIL. I made a funny. ;D

Joe Salt

 

[noload]

I've been fighting a case head expanding problem with my 284 Shehane. I just Fire formed some Norma 6.5 x284. I can not figure out why my primer pockets start to leak after 3 fires on 30% of the cases. I have .0038" neck clearance with a loaded round (180 VLD) measured with the pressure ridge in the middle of the neck.

The rim of the case is .469"-.470" dia. before firing, after 3 firings( 4 out of 60 rounds) the primers will fall out??? Rim now measures .472" on some and some still .469" ??
Fire form Load specs: 4831sc, 55.0gn,180 VLD .005-.008 into lands.
N160 49.5 Vld 180 into lands the same as above.
Full load specs. in a formed case: 56.2- 56.0 of 4831SC VLD 180 .008 into lands, this load will loosen pockets with powder stains, and drop 4 primers out of 60 shots. This load shoots excellent but will kill the brass.. or 30% of it in 80 degree heat.
I experimented with hotter loads just to see what pressures the brass would take . And I was confused as to why some brass showed pressure signs and some did not. Example: of 5 shots 57.8 gn 4831sc ,180 VLD. (2) heads had ejector marks and 3 looked fine and measured silghtly larger than new.

Crony numbers are : 56.2, VLD = 2907 fastest of ( 5) jammed 008 64*F
55.0 Vld = 2815 to 2832 (5) jammed 006
Shot in Bat M, 28" Benchmark barrel 5r, .2772" bore 9TW.
I bought 500 pieces of NORMA brass, and I,m down to my last 100 , never had good life with this stuff. The Lapua brass would take these loads without too much trouble.
This is my 4th barrel ...Loads are ..may be just too hot??

Is this the time I think about oiling my cases.. ?? LOL They are completely dry.
I've tried all kinds of forming loads from light to heavy, just can't seem to get any life from these cases.
Any suggestions are welcome.

 

[bigedp51]

South Pender

Look at the Quickload chart below for my practice AR15 .223/5.56 practice ammunition.

I'm loading these .223/5.56 cases to slightly lower than .222 pressure to make my brass last longer. I did this because I had a .222 and the brass lasted forever and I do not remember any type case failures. If you have a Hornady cartridge case headspace gauge and measure your new cases and use the primer trick to find your chamber length you will be money ahead. Meaning find out your head clearance before you pull the trigger and determine your best fireforming method. And if you can find anyone who ever had a case head separation when forming a .222 case at 46,000 cup then let me know. The .222 was known for long case life due to its lower chamber pressures and as long as you do not have excessively short headspace cases I don't think any of your case will stretch on the first firing.

Having said this you already know that I think that anyone who oils his cases to fireform them is a long haired commie pinko pervert and should be shot with a dull bullet. And also remember that Enfield hating Boyd Allen said it above, its all in the math in computing the estimated bolt thrust.

Now dont tell CatShooter I said this BUT if oiling a cartridge case doubles your bolt thrust at normal chamber pressures then a mid range load with a oiled case would theoretically produce the same amount of bolt thrust at the cartridges maximum rated pressure. And "NO" I do not have leftist leanings, I have short hair and vote republican every year.

So if you oil your cases and just don't admit it to anyone in this forum no one will know that you are a (expletive deleted) commie pinko pervert.

And remember you can always use the COW method of fire forming your brass, and instead of cream of wheat just switch to any grain of your choosing. This way you can fire form your cases in the morning and have a fresh hot bowl of cereal for breakfast.

 

[CatShooter]

Now don't tell CatShooter I said this BUT if oiling a cartridge case doubles your bolt thrust at normal chamber pressures then a mid range load with a oiled case would theoretically produce the same amount of bolt thrust at the cartridges maximum rated pressure. And "NO" I do not have leftist leanings, I have short hair and vote republican every year.

So if you oil your cases and just don't admit it to anyone in this forum no one will know that you are a (expletive deleted) commie pinko pervert.

Edwardus....

Shame on you. That chart was made by a dumb bunny, and you should have caught it right away...

The pressure on the bolt face is NOT equal the internal pressure x the area of the head.

It is equal to the internal pressure x the area of the INTERNAL area of the web, which cuts those numbers to ~60%.

Badd puppy for posting such bogus bull-poopie.

 

[bigedp51]

I've been fighting a case head expanding problem with my 284 Shehane. I just Fire formed some Norma 6.5 x284. I can not figure out why my primer pockets start to leak after 3 fires on 30% of the cases. I have .0038" neck clearance with a loaded round (180 VLD) measured with the pressure ridge in the middle of the neck.

The rim of the case is .469"-.470" dia. before firing, after 3 firings( 4 out of 60 rounds) the primers will fall out??? Rim now measures .472" on some and some still .469" ??
Fire form Load specs: 4831sc, 55.0gn,180 VLD .005-.008 into lands.
N160 49.5 Vld 180 into lands the same as above.
Full load specs. in a formed case: 56.2- 56.0 of 4831SC VLD 180 .008 into lands, this load will loosen pockets with powder stains, and drop 4 primers out of 60 shots. This load shoots excellent but will kill the brass.. or 30% of it in 80 degree heat.
I experimented with hotter loads just to see what pressures the brass would take . And I was confused as to why some brass showed pressure signs and some did not. Example: of 5 shots 57.8 gn 4831sc ,180 VLD. (2) heads had ejector marks and 3 looked fine and measured silghtly larger than new.

Crony numbers are : 56.2, VLD = 2907 fastest of ( 5) jammed 008 64*F
55.0 Vld = 2815 to 2832 (5) jammed 006
Shot in Bat M, 28" Benchmark barrel 5r, .2772" bore 9TW.
I bought 500 pieces of NORMA brass, and I,m down to my last 100 , never had good life with this stuff. The Lapua brass would take these loads without too much trouble.
This is my 4th barrel ...Loads are ..may be just too hot??

Is this the time I think about oiling my cases.. ?? LOL They are completely dry.
I've tried all kinds of forming loads from light to heavy, just can't seem to get any life from these cases.
Any suggestions are welcome.

Your primer pockets are enlarging because you are loading hot and are exceeding the elastic limits of the brass.
You have three choices.
1. Reduce your load.
2. Buy harder brass that doesn't stretch as bad. (Lapua is the hardest of the commercial brass cases)
3. All of the above.

Question, what brand cases are you using

 

[bigedp51]

Edwardus....

Shame on you. That chart was made by a dumb bunny, and you should have caught it right away...

The pressure on the bolt face is NOT equal the internal pressure x the area of the head.

It is equal to the internal pressure x the area of the INTERNAL area of the web, which cuts those numbers to ~60%.

Badd puppy for posting such bogus bull-poopie.

Dear Catshooter

I was in the Air Force in aircraft maintenance and studied hydraulics and then worked at a military aircraft depot overhauling aircraft and aircraft hydraulic components so I studied and know all about Pascal's law. Meaning it is the surface area "inside" the base of the case (piston diameter) and the pressure applied to it that equates to bolt thrust figures. (psi pressure)

I used the photo above because it "DID" use the outside diameter of the case increasing the bolt thrust readings and hopefully scaring more people from greasing or oiling their cases. I forgot to tell you after I got out of the regular Air Force I joined the Air National Guard and the 193rd Tactical Electronic Warfare Group and worked on C130 PsyOps aircraft (Psychological Warfare) So most of my postings are shock and awe attacks that numb the brain through subliminal suggestion using images. :

So CatShooter there is regular everyday bull-poopie (fgoofy type) and then there is PsyOps Bull-Poopie Maximus.

 

[bigedp51]

THRUST = AREA x CPSI
AREA = 3.1416 x (HS / 2) ^ 2
HS = inside diameter of case head.

dmoron

That math formula you copied out of a book is copyrighted.

 

[snert]

No offense meant at all guys, but the OP seems to be simply firing 222 brass in a 222 chamber. I KNOW that most people here like to make things harder than they appear, but all he has to do is load them and shoot them.

 

[bigedp51]

No offense meant at all guys, but the OP seems to be simply firing 222 brass in a 222 chamber. I KNOW that most people here like to make things harder than they appear, but all he has to do is load them and shoot them.

No offence taken and Boyd Allen said the same thing in post # 24. The problem is if we acknowledge this then we won't have anything to argue about and we still have two days left of this weekend.

And if we do stop here and now then we will have to wait until fguffey comes back to the forum to have another free for all.

So thanks a lot buddy, now bigedp51 will have to return to base with only half his .50 cal ammo fired.

 

[Brians356]

And remember you can always use the COW method of fire forming your brass,

Bingo! (Is there an echo in here?) And be sure to lightly oil the case when you do.

 

[Bindi2]

I've been fighting a case head expanding problem with my 284 Shehane. I just Fire formed some Norma 6.5 x284. I can not figure out why my primer pockets start to leak after 3 fires on 30% of the cases. I have .0038" neck clearance with a loaded round (180 VLD) measured with the pressure ridge in the middle of the neck.

The rim of the case is .469"-.470" dia. before firing, after 3 firings( 4 out of 60 rounds) the primers will fall out??? Rim now measures .472" on some and some still .469" ??
Fire form Load specs: 4831sc, 55.0gn,180 VLD .005-.008 into lands.
N160 49.5 Vld 180 into lands the same as above.
Full load specs. in a formed case: 56.2- 56.0 of 4831SC VLD 180 .008 into lands, this load will loosen pockets with powder stains, and drop 4 primers out of 60 shots. This load shoots excellent but will kill the brass.. or 30% of it in 80 degree heat.
I experimented with hotter loads just to see what pressures the brass would take . And I was confused as to why some brass showed pressure signs and some did not. Example: of 5 shots 57.8 gn 4831sc ,180 VLD. (2) heads had ejector marks and 3 looked fine and measured silghtly larger than new.

Crony numbers are : 56.2, VLD = 2907 fastest of ( 5) jammed 008 64*F
55.0 Vld = 2815 to 2832 (5) jammed 006
Shot in Bat M, 28" Benchmark barrel 5r, .2772" bore 9TW.
I bought 500 pieces of NORMA brass, and I,m down to my last 100 , never had good life with this stuff. The Lapua brass would take these loads without too much trouble.
This is my 4th barrel ...Loads are ..may be just too hot??

Is this the time I think about oiling my cases.. ?? LOL They are completely dry.
I've tried all kinds of forming loads from light to heavy, just can't seem to get any life from these cases.
Any suggestions are welcome.

Your primer pockets are enlarging because you are loading hot and are exceeding the elastic limits of the brass.
You have three choices.
1. Reduce your load.
2. Buy harder brass that doesn't stretch as bad. (Lapua is the hardest of the commercial brass cases)
3. All of the above.

Question, what brand cases are you using

Hi ED
I have had a bad experience with Lapua brass. Head expansion to the point of loose primers at 2 firings. Winchester brass still going strong at 9+ firing 175gn pills in a 308. Did bin the Lap brass just to soft.
Don't oil or Lube brass for any reason unless you are doing proof loads which also have a higher powder charge.

 

[BoydAllen]

I would like to know the weights of the Winchester and Lapua brass. If the Lapua is significantly heavier, it has less volume, and putting the same weight of powder in both will produce more pressure in the heavier cases. Back in the day when we were shooting military brass a couple of calibers, this was common knowledge, these days, not so much. Do you have any of the Lapua brass left? If you do, trim one and a Winchester case to the same length and weigh them. I would be interested in the difference. Also, you could do a water volume evaluation, just make sure that they are both in the same condition as far as being fired or not.

 

[dkhunt14]

THRUST = AREA x CPSI
AREA = 3.1416 x (HS / 2) ^ 2
HS = inside diameter of case head.

dmoron

That math formula you copied out of a book is copyrighted.

So is all the information and pictures you post. Matt

 

[bigedp51]

THRUST = AREA x CPSI
AREA = 3.1416 x (HS / 2) ^ 2
HS = inside diameter of case head.

dmoron

That math formula you copied out of a book is copyrighted.

So is all the information and pictures you post. Matt

And far too many people know nothing about the "Fair Use" and for "Educational Purposes" in the copyright laws.

And dmoran sent me a PM saying he would being a lawsuit against me if I ever use one of his images.
And my reply to him was he didn't have any images worth using, and my postings are rubbing his nose in his arrogant PM.

Your school teachers copy hand outs from copyrighted books for you to "learn" from and the teachers didn't go to jail.

And in training classes where I worked we made handouts from copyrighted book and did not break any laws.

Below are "MY" photos and hundreds of them are scattered in Enfield forums used to help others. And I do not care if they are posted by other people to help other Enfield owners.

Bolt head over rotation

Bedding the Enfield

And these are my photos to show just a few.

The "majority" of the photos I post are use to make a posting easier to grasp and understand no matter the source and "NOTHING" is being sold.

So get a life and always remember I'm better looking than you are and have a great sense of humor. :

Below my High School graduation photo.

 

[Joe Salt]

One reason I don't like trying to help anyone on this Forum too many arguments! Just like everything else start low and work your way up till you find the sweet spot. There is no right answer for your application, you need to find it your self.

joe Salt

 

[bigedp51]

One reason I don't like trying to help anyone on this Forum too many arguments!
joe Salt

Joe

Arguing here is a lot cheaper than paying a psychiatrist and venting. :