Fire form question

[nvbroncrider]

I think most of you guys should bother to read P.O. Ackleys' books ("Handbook For Shooters and Reloaders" , a 2 volume set) instead of getting your information off of the interdnet!

Exactly

 

[XBBR Shooter]

"Most Ackleys have excessive case stretch problems... many suffer head separations often.
And 0.007" is not enough crush to insure proper forming.
New case headspace allows 0.010" variance - so with your 0.007", a new case can still be 0.003" loose.
And, a properly formed Ackley case from a well made chamber should shrink a fair amount... 5 to 10 thou.

If your cases are not shorter when they come out, than they were when they went in, then your cases are stretching at the web."

This statement is so far from the truth. The cases will NEVER lengthen in an improved chamber, even if they ARE stretching at the web. Please explain how it can possibly stay the same or lengthen when it is the top third of the case forming to the chamber? The case would have to be short by the amount it stretched, wouldn't it? HOGWASH! How many improved chamber rifles do you own?
Have never had case stretch problems with a PROPERLY cut chamber with .005"-.008" negative headspace. I form cases from 22-250AI through to 375 Weatherby, 404 Jeffery and 338-416 Rigby Imp none stretch causing head separations. Even belted magnums that headspace on the belt, still come out .020"-.030" short in the neck. The brass has to be pulled from somewhere, and that somewhere is always the thinnest area cause it expands first to fill the chamber and seal it.

I must admit I switched to forming without bullets some time ago, but, I've done my fair share of firing factory ammo in improved chambers without a single hiccup. I still do it if I get given factory ammo somebody no longer needs in a cal I use that is improved.

I owned a 257 Ackley Roberts, two 244 Ackleys, A 22-250 Ackley, and a .220 Ackley Swift.

After head separations with my first 257 AI, I learned to use false shoulders to make cases. After that, I never had any head separations, or other problems.

 

[shortgrass]

Why do you guys seem to think you have to over complicate everything?! Ackley designed his "improved" line of cartriges "so even a caveman could do it!".

 

[fguffey]

I've read to use a mid level powder charge for fire forming and was curious to why?.. then I was reading by using a hot load you can stretch primer pockets during fire forming..is this so..

When I read all of the instructions for forming and fire forming on the Internet I get the impression there is more to fire forming than the reloader can keep up with. If the case forms to the chamber pressure is reduced because of the unknown factor involved. A reloader should have a list of factors that govern forming, fire forming and annealing.

Again; it was suggested I could be involved in some risky stuff when forming and then fire forming, I did not agree, I thought there were built in factors that prevented my methods and techniques from being scary. On the outside chance I missed something I called Hodgdon, they said I was safe but my fire forming load could be at or above the maximum load after the cases were formed but because of factors I was safe.

F. Guffey

 

[Tommie]

I read P.O. Ackley's books (cover to cover) several times and then proceeded to rechamber 7 rifles to an improved chamber. Did the work myself. Each rifle performs perfectly. Do as Mr. Ackley says and it aint rocket surgery.

Correctly chambered Ackley Improved rifles DO NOT suffer from case head separation or lenghtening issues. Matter of fact, brass life should increase greatly. Anyone having such problems either owns in improperly chambered rifle or is over-working brass during resizing. And fire forming should be no more difficult than closing the bolt on a loaded round and pulling the trigger.

 

[fguffey]

I read P.O. Ackley's books (cover to cover) several times and then proceeded to rechamber 7 rifles to an improved chamber. Did the work myself. Each rifle performs perfectly. Do as Mr. Ackley says and it aint rocket surgery.

Correctly chambered Ackley Improved rifles DO NOT suffer from case head separation or lengthening issues. Matter of fact, brass life should increase greatly. Anyone having such problems either owns in improperly chambered rifle or is over-working brass during resizing. And fire forming should be no more difficult than closing the bolt on a loaded round and pulling the trigger.

I disagree, you claim you chambered 7 rifles to Ackely Improved chambers without mentioning what receivers were used and then you omitted the most important detail; did the barrels have an existing chamber or were they short chambered barrels?

F. Guffey

 

[Tommie]

I disagree, you claim you chambered 7 rifles to Ackely Improved chambers without mentioning what receivers were used and then you omitted the most important detail; did the barrels have an existing chamber or were they short chambered barrels?

F. Guffey

What do you disagree with? That I did this work? Or do you disagree with how a properly chambered AI gun performs? I'm no mere keyboard expert. I've done the homework and the gunsmithing.

To clarify:
Actions: Remington 700, 788, Ruger 77, '03 Springfield. ALL barrels were already fully chambered, functional and had seen years of use as-is. Each barrel (except the 788 in 30-30) had to be set back to re-chambered to AI. I did the job correctly and the guns perform. Go figure.

I stand by my previous post.

 

[nickvaughn316]

Just keep it simple...
Choose a load 10% below saami max and lightly oil the cases before firing them so they do not stick to your chamber walls while expanding.... They will come out perfect..

 

[fguffey]

What do you disagree with?

With no more information's furnished in the beginning someone could get the ideal there was a "all you have to do" method and or technique. If you did not set the barrel back on the 30/06 Ruger you do not have a

Correctly chambered Ackley Improved rifle

.

And then there is the setting the barrel back; it is possible to get two different neck diameters, the old chamber may not be cleaned up with the new Ackley reamer. By design the Ackley chamber is designed to be used with factory, over the counter, new ammo. The reason; the neck on factory 30/06 cases is shorter than the neck on the Ackley chamber. When chambered the factory neck is sized at the shoulder neck juncture, when that happens it is said the case head spaces when the neck/shoulder juncture is sized when the bolt is closed. When the chamber is cut without setting the barrel back part of the old chamber is not cleaned up with the Ackely Reamer. The part of the chamber that is not cleaned up prevents the case from being sized when the bolt is closed.

If not for the short neck on the 30 Gibbs the Gibbs would be a better option because there is no way the Gibbs reamer will not clean up the old chamber (except for generous necks).

F.Guffey_

 

[Tommie]

G

With no more information's furnished in the beginning someone could get the ideal there was a "all you have to do" method and or technique. If you did not set the barrel back on the 30/06 Ruger you do not have a .

And then there is the setting the barrel back; it is possible to get two different neck diameters, the old chamber may not be cleaned up with the new Ackley reamer. By design the Ackley chamber is designed to be used with factory, over the counter, new ammo. The reason; the neck on factory 30/06 cases is shorter than the neck on the Ackley chamber. When chambered the factory neck is sized at the shoulder neck juncture, when that happens it is said the case head spaces when the neck/shoulder juncture is sized when the bolt is closed. When the chamber is cut without setting the barrel back part of the old chamber is not cleaned up with the Ackely Reamer. The part of the chamber that is not cleaned up prevents the case from being sized when the bolt is closed.

If not for the short neck on the 30 Gibbs the Gibbs would be a better option because there is no way the Gibbs reamer will not clean up the old chamber (except for generous necks).

F.Guffey_

u

With no more information's furnished in the beginning someone could get the ideal there was a "all you have to do" method and or technique. If you did not set the barrel back on the 30/06 Ruger you do not have a .

And then there is the setting the barrel back; it is possible to get two different neck diameters, the old chamber may not be cleaned up with the new Ackley reamer. By design the Ackley chamber is designed to be used with factory, over the counter, new ammo. The reason; the neck on factory 30/06 cases is shorter than the neck on the Ackley chamber. When chambered the factory neck is sized at the shoulder neck juncture, when that happens it is said the case head spaces when the neck/shoulder juncture is sized when the bolt is closed. When the chamber is cut without setting the barrel back part of the old chamber is not cleaned up with the Ackely Reamer. The part of the chamber that is not cleaned up prevents the case from being sized when the bolt is closed.

If not for the short neck on the 30 Gibbs the Gibbs would be a better option because there is no way the Gibbs reamer will not clean up the old chamber (except for generous necks).

F.Guffey_

TROLL ALERT

 

[sofarfrome]

Most Ackleys have excessive case stretch problems... many suffer head separations often.
And 0.007" is not enough crush to insure proper forming.
New case headspace allows 0.010" variance - so with your 0.007", a new case can still be 0.003" loose.
And, a properly formed Ackley case from a well made chamber should shrink a fair amount... 5 to 10 thou.

If your cases are not shorter when they come out, than they were when they went in, then your cases are stretching at the web.

If your Ackley chamber has an excessive case stretch issue it was not chambered correctly, period. I have fire formed hundreds of Ackley cases (243 and 257) and never lost a one. The chamber needs a very slight crush fit at the neck shoulder junction. In order to achieve this the chamber must be cut to chamber a few previously FL sized cases, trimmed to length (based on the reamer print), where the bolt closes with very slight difficulty (firing pin assembly removed). Use a marker or dykem to see tooling marks.

 

[rebs]

when you shoot a factory loaded 223 in your rifle doesn't it get fire formed?
I mean what happens when you shoot factory ammo and then use it for reloads?

 

[mikecr]

This thread is so old..
You should start a new/clean one.