Fine tuning my load

[TroyMN]

I have 2 different bullet, case, powder, OAL combinations. They shoot .5-.9 MOA when I do my part. They where full length resized. I want to shoot a test with each combo. 5 shot groups each. The org load fl resize, fire formed and collet resized, and fire formed annealed and collet resized. Brass is sorted by weight. Total 30 rounds. What might this test tell me? Neck tension?

Does this look like the best approach to see which is the most precise load? I do not want to introduce too many variables.

Also how many fouling rounds is normal with a factory barrel? How many rounds before you clean factory barrels? I read on hear some guns shoot better after 20 plus rounds.?

 

[TroyMN]

I did forget to mention I did not just slap them together. I have a good basic knowlwdge of reloading, the current 2 loads where worked up to be the most accurate with each bullet I could get. I changed the powder charge and seating depth. Two other bullets I just dropped due to no good groupings. In the past i worked up in .5 grain steps with 3 or 5 shot groups until I found a tight group, and re tested around that charge. The second load was using the ladder test and focusing on the node with higher fps. I get some good groups .5 moa. With all the variables out there, not sure I am being systematic enough. On the Horn 168 hpbt I played with the seating depth after the ladder test and all other (coal) where way worst. Was I supposed to do that first? I started at mag length wanting to be able to feed them, then worked out to .020 off lands in .020 increments . Mag length is about .090 jump.
General question if you have a significantly different neck tension will that require a different powder charge to group the same?
Is seating bullets with lubricant like "frog lube" a common practice?
Thanks
Troy

 

[BoydAllen]

I think that you are on a course to wear out a barrel trying to do too many things at once. First of all, what caliber are you working with, and what twist is your barrel? What rifle are you working with, If it is a bolt action, have you done anything to the rifle, such as floating the barrel, bedding the action, and working on the trigger? What sort of rest are you using? Are you using something to look at what the wind is doing? IMO, these areas need to be dealt with before any serious load fine tuning takes place. Perhaps you already have.

As far as actual load development goes, I have seen that loading five round tests at home, and going back and forth to the range is an inefficient method, wasteful of barrel life and reloading components. I have had much better results taking it all to the range and doing it all there, shooting with flags and a chronograph. I have a lot of experience with both methods. The only real issue with loading at the range is weighing charges, and I have solved that problem in a way that is not costly.

 

[Catfish]

I think that you are on a course to wear out a barrel trying to do too many things at once. First of all, what caliber are you working with, and what twist is your barrel? What rifle are you working with, If it is a bolt action, have you done anything to the rifle, such as floating the barrel, bedding the action, and working on the trigger? What sort of rest are you using? Are you using something to look at what the wind is doing? IMO, these areas need to be dealt with before any serious load fine tuning takes place. Perhaps you already have.

As far as actual load development goes, I have seen that loading five round tests at home, and going back and forth to the range is an inefficient method, wasteful of barrel life and reloading components. I have had much better results taking it all to the range and doing it all there, shooting with flags and a chronograph. I have a lot of experience with both methods. The only real issue with loading at the range is weighing charges, and I have solved that problem in a way that is not costly.
I have been there and done that. Also if you annel your brass it will streach alot faster and you will buying brass more often with, in my oppenion, no gain in accuracy. Constant neck tention becomes more important the farther you are shooting.

 

[Catfish]

I think that you are on a course to wear out a barrel trying to do too many things at once. First of all, what caliber are you working with, and what twist is your barrel? What rifle are you working with, If it is a bolt action, have you done anything to the rifle, such as floating the barrel, bedding the action, and working on the trigger? What sort of rest are you using? Are you using something to look at what the wind is doing? IMO, these areas need to be dealt with before any serious load fine tuning takes place. Perhaps you already have.

As far as actual load development goes, I have seen that loading five round tests at home, and going back and forth to the range is an inefficient method, wasteful of barrel life and reloading components. I have had much better results taking it all to the range and doing it all there, shooting with flags and a chronograph. I have a lot of experience with both methods. The only real issue with loading at the range is weighing charges, and I have solved that problem in a way that is not costly.

I have been there and done that. Also if you annel your brass it will streach alot faster and you will buying brass more often with, in my oppenion, no gain in accuracy. Constant neck tention becomes more important the farther you are shooting.

 

[TroyMN]

It's a .308 700 sps tactical 20" barrel, devcon bedded free floating, trigger xmark with lighter spring from Ernie's(<4lbs) shoot from bags or bipod and rear bag. I load develop in less than 3 mph conditions. I thought the proposed test would give me information regarding if I my best precision is from fl size--- collet size----- annealed collet sized. I hope the collet will give low runout and the annealing will help with consistent neck tension. I do shoot some long range the hornady 168 did great until 800yards 9,9,x,9,x then lost speed at 1000 and punched oblong holes. So this load is going to be my less than 800 yards which in MN is almost every wear.

 

[BoydAllen]

Great info! There is some thought that tune for a given bullet and powder may be velocity specific. The reason that I mention this is that if it is the case, and I think that generally it is, if you make a change in something that changes velocity, that you might want to adjust your powder charge to put it back on the same velocity, assuming that you have tuned succeessfully with one set of variables. In my experience, if you first neck size with a collet die, and then use a body die, set for proper shoulder bump, with unturned necks, you will probably have the most consistent neck tension and runout. Just remember that in order to adjust neck tension, you will have to either modify you mandrel or buy an additional one. As far as annealing goes, I think that you will find that for starters, that you may want to stick with sorting by seating force. IMO it is easy to go backwards if necks are made too soft. Also, if you do, be sure to set your FL or body die from scratch, as the softened brass will take a different setting. Another opinion, you need to put out some sticks with surveyors' tape tied to their tops (down to the ground) to see what the wind is doing. Without them you will make the mistake of thinking that some difference in groups is the load, when it is not. On the trigger, I would see if I could find a used old style Remington, and do the spring kit for it. You will need the safety for it. They are different. You might be able to get some 175 gr SMKs to make 1,000. Have you played with primers? I would do my own testing as to how many rounds it takes to settle down your barrel after cleaning. They can vary, depending on how rough they are. One time I met a fellow with a stainless Ruger .270 that was cleaning way too often, and although he was a good shooter, and a meticulous reloader, he had been chasing his tail for 6 mos trying to get under an inch and a half with that rifle. After talking with him for a while, to learn what he had been shooting. I advised him to stop cleaning so often, and after seven or eight shots the barrel settled down. It turns out that that had been his problem all along. His load was fine. How are you holding the rifle, and pulling the trigger? The reason that I ask is that a lot of shooters have issues here because they try to hold the rifle too lightly, and because they do not slowly add pressure to the trigger, while holding point of aim, and let the rifle surprise them as to exactly when it is going off. I also find that follow through is a major issue. You shoud react like as sack of grain when the rifle goes off, only snowing the body movement that recoil produces, no reaction, or bringing your head up quickly. BTW I did not mean to discourage your testing. I have always enjoyed doing that myself. Good luck, and report back on your results.

Boyd

 

[TroyMN]

NECK TENSION..?
I did machine down my mandrel from .306 to .304 The reason I did this is the collet die would not size the case. I took the die apart and polished the internals to remove as many machining marks as I could. I also lube the die and reassembled. Still very little sizing done. Next I started adding more pressure to the die. I have a torque wrench adapted to the press to know exactly how much pressure i am using. Started at 25lbs then 30, 40 , 50....I was worried I was going to break it like others have. That is when the Mandrel was polished down to .304-.3045 it is hard to tell with my tools. That mandrel with the 55 lbs of pressure created enough sizing so the bullet would atleast have resistence when seating.
Some Facts: (20 cases)
Fired case O.D. near mouth .344 with either LC07 or W*W brass.
LC brass with 40lbs on collet die 335-336,(first one I was not ready for the click and pushed too hard) 338-339,339-340,340-341,340-341. All the cases you could feel a square-ness to them??, feel the ridges of the fingers when rotating case to measure.
LC brass annealed .335 everyone no square-ness, smooth around the neck.
W*W brass .338,.338,.338,.339,.338 smooth
W*W brass annealed .334,.333,.334,..3335,.334 smooth

To me this shows the neck tension will be more consistent with the annealing. As far as annealing making brass too soft and thus fail sooner. The way I read post on the internet is that the anealing will extend case life, if not over annealed.
Trigger, yes I am tring to talk myself into a trigger Timney or Jewell? I can tell my groups shrink in size due to the trigger pull weight. The rifles I shoot start in the area or 6lbs+. My A-bolt I lighted and seems good. The M70 lighted and seemed AWSOME! but with a scale it is in the low 3lbs range. The X-mark Pro, was about 5 and with the spring is just under 4. I like it when a trigger "suprises me" when it goes off, that is my way of saying I do not have to keep and keep squeezing. I liked the 6lbs to 4lbs change will I appreciate the change from 4 down to a 1.5 lb pull as much? If so It is worth the $120 or so.. I also maybe building a rifle in the future that I can use a nice trigger on, I have a barrel but not much else yet.
My plan is one of the above loads will be the standard and I will work on another (prob 175SMK) for 1000 yards.
I consider this test and my trigger time practice. I do not hunt much, I never see any matches at my club. My load targets are my "practice". I will be happy to wear this barrel out, its only a .308 sps. My build rifle might only have a 800-900 round life so... need to get more skills down with this one first.

 

[TroyMN]

Wind Flags:
It seems like even a constant 3mph wind will make a 12" and 24" piece of survey tape blow nearly straight. I thought a longer piece might have a lower angle to help gauge the wind. I am not interested in purchasing a fancy wind gauge, but I am aware I need to know more about how to measure it and learn what it does to my bullet.
Thanks again to everyone for all your advice.
Troy

 

[BoydAllen]

Get a Jewel trigger; you won't regret it. It will take a little while to get used to the lighter pull, but after you do, it should make a huge difference in how easy it is to get a shot off consistently, and put out something so that you can see what the wind is doing.