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Fine tuning COAL.

Endyo -

Each to our own, and do what you think is best for you...
Myself, while having low ES is desired and worth pursuit, the vertical dispersion on the target at distance is my final judgmental proof and fact, no matter what the ES ends up. Have seen lowest ES loads that do not always produce the best vertical down range. If the chronograph is simulating the target, great and is a stats bonus. But actual vertical trumps all - IME

Donovan
 
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dmoran said:
Endyo -

Each to our own, and do what you think is best for you...
Myself, while having low ES is desired and worth pursuit, the vertical dispersion on the target at distance is my final judgmental proof and fact, no matter what the ES ends up. Have seen lowest ES loads that do not always produce the best vertical down range. If the chronograph is simulating the target, great and is a stats bonus. But actual vertical trumps all - IME

Donovan
Click to expand...

Thanks Donovan. I had thought a higher ES would punish me more at 1,000 yards (more vertical dispersion) due to the differences in velocity.

I guess 1K in some respects is no different than 100yards. I'll to go out to 1K and see what the paper tells me.

Remington 9 1/2 Mags printed small groups also, but a big ES. Maybe I need to revisit that primer also.
 
dmoran said:
Endyo -
An accuracy advantage to being in close proximity and in contact with the rifling can be from alignment improvements.
The improvements come from the bullet being pushed into alignment with the bore when making contact with the throat/rifling in its placement when chambered. Then by being pre-aligned, when it is fired its running true, square and straight with the bore, instead of having to be engaged from a jump and potential misalignment aspects that can come from jumping to the lands.
My 2-Cents
Donovan
Click to expand...

You guys are way more experienced than me but isn't freebore (not sure what that tunnel is called lol)where bullet has to travel before engaging rifling only 0.0005" to 0.001" bigger then caliber? If it is, that should align the bullet pretty good (ie within a thou)as it leaves case mouth and travels towards rifling? we all like the concentricity of one thou or better? No ?
 
calgarycanada - you are correct.
I referred to it as "throat/rifling", sorry if I wasn't clear enough.
Donovan
 
savagedasher said:
I shoot only bullets that like to be jumped . The coal I use is for lowering my ES I let the tuner do the rest. Larry
Click to expand...
Glad that works for you.....
I'd be leaving to much on the fence to do it that way, for the places I go to compete.
Donovan
 
I'm with donovan on this don't worry about ES. If your shooting at 1000 yards look for Vertical spread. If you are seeing vertical, seat the bullet 5 or 10 thou. deeper at a time to get the vertical out. If you do have big vertical you may want to jump about 20 thou. VLD's like into the lands Or jumped. Do what your barrel likes.


Joe Salt
 
tom said:
Larry,

Vertical is from any number of things that aren't perfect. Especially at 1000.

There is no "MAGIC" bullet, that can just put any old place in reference to the lands. There might be some that shoot "less crappy", but they all have spots where they're at their best.


Tom
Click to expand...
I agree with Donovan and saw my one gun shoot ES of 3 shoot 13 inches plus at 1000. The same gun with a load that shot ES of 10 would shoot 4 inches of vertical. This is just one example from one gun but I have seen it many times with multiple guns. The only way you find this out is Testing and doing it at 1000.

As far as seating depth goes you need to test this at distance also. Almost all my guns like it IN the lands. Usually around .010 to .015. Now I shoot mostly VLD type bullets. What shows at 100 also doesn't always carry to 1000. Matt
 
The message is consistent. Someone mentioned magic bullets. I'm going to do more research on this. :)

In all seriousness I've tried load development at distance in the past but there starts to be more "noise" with wind doping, mirage, etc.

I'm at the point in load development where I need to run it at distance (VERIFICATION) There are a few very small tweaks with each being very promising.
 
My opinion is all that matters is the group on the paper. For me, I have seen no correlation between group size and ES at 1k. Smaller ES does not mean smaller groups. Tom is right about seating depth working like a sine wave just like powder charge, it comes in and out. All bullets need to be seated in their sweet spot, I dont feel that there are any that are immune to being seated in the wrong spot. My advice it to seat them as long as possible, then push them in .003" at a time and shoot them at your intended distance. Or you can try a tuner (or tuner's aid as I call them). It will help you tune your barrel if you dont want to learn to do it the right way.
 
We have 10 or more of us shooting hybrids we find they like to be jumped around .020 .
zfastmalibu said:
My opinion is all that matters is the group on the paper. For me, I have seen no correlation between group size and ES at 1k. Smaller ES does not mean smaller groups. Tom is right about seating depth working like a sine wave just like powder charge, it comes in and out. All bullets need to be seated in their sweet spot, I dont feel that there are any that are immune to being seated in the wrong spot. My advice it to seat them as long as possible, then push them in .003" at a time and shoot them at your intended distance. Or you can try a tuner (or tuner's aid as I call them). It will help you tune your barrel if you dont want to learn to do it the right way.
Click to expand...
zfastmalibu said:
My opinion is all that matters is the group on the paper. For me, I have seen no correlation between group size and ES at 1k. Smaller ES does not mean smaller groups. Tom is right about seating depth working like a sine wave just like powder charge, it comes in and out. All bullets need to be seated in their sweet spot, I dont feel that there are any that are immune to being seated in the wrong spot. My advice it to seat them as long as possible, then push them in .003" at a time and shoot them at your intended distance. Or you can try a tuner (or tuner's aid as I call them). It will help you tune your barrel if you dont want to learn to do it the right way.
Click to expand...
I don't call them a tuners aid. Their a shooters friend .
If I load the day before and the conditions change . I can change my tune with the help of the tuner. Larry
 
Speaking of condition changes. I keep finding that loads from the day before are giving me different velocities. I think today's culprit was a very dirty barrel (wanted to see how long it could go before accuracy trailed off). Groups got bigger had to call it an early day. Did a thorough cleaning tonight. Still hoping to get to 1k tomorrow.
 
Larry doesn't it make scents that if you change seating depth other things like velocity changes also, and that changes the tune in the barrel.

Joe Salt
 
Joe Salt said:
Larry doesn't it make scents that if you change seating depth other things like velocity changes also, and that changes the tune in the barrel.

Joe Salt
Click to expand...
Joe I adjust setting depth to stabilize my ES . The sweet spot can be as much .008 that the speed don't change. That gives me a wider sweet spots . My way of tuning is different then a person without a tuner. Larry
 
Larry even with a Tuner, For every action there is a reaction! I'm glad the tuner is working for you, but I was talking just seating depth. That's the reason I only change one thing at time. If you change your seating depth and your tuner what done what.

Joe Salt
 
I have followed the Berger method in the article. It works. One group will be substantially tighter than the others, It works for A-Max as well, but at different "best" setting. From the "best, then fine tune it by going .01 up twice and .01 down twice. Then fine tune to final.
 
Joe Salt said:
Larry even with a Tuner, For every action there is a reaction! I'm glad the tuner is working for you, but I was talking just seating depth. That's the reason I only change one thing at time. If you change your seating depth and your tuner what done what.

Joe Salt
Click to expand...
Does the same as without it . But if my bullet speed is better. I can change the tuner to get the group size . Larry
 
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