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Finding lands !

So I took 3 Berger 90BTs that were almost identical . Only .001 variance in OAL and no variance in base to Ogive. Seated them long and chambered . Took 3/16 aluminum rod with machined bushings. First I took a reading to bolt face then chambered a round and took reading off point of bullet . First 2 chambered rounds measured identical to the .001 . 3rd round measures .007 less !!!!! What the hell is that ?

Thx

Mark
 
Instead of thinking about it like "distance to lands" - Think about it like "distance to my reference point"

Finding the distance to lands is an art and depends on a lot of things. So lets not worry about it. Let's find a reference point instead of an exact measurement to something that doesn't matter.

When I get a new barrel I want to measure, I stuff a bullet in with the hornady tool, moderate pressure, one time, and that's my reference point. I dont care if the bullet is 5 thou in the lands or 2 thou short - You'll never find exactly where they are with the tools most people have.

Cram a bullet in there. Take it out. Measure your distance. That's your starting point to measure seating depth. Again, it's a general reference point, not an exact measurement of the lands - and that's fine. It doesn't matter.
 
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Although the 3 bullets were similar to within .001" in the dimensions that you measured, one possibility is that they may differ in nose diameter at a given point on the ogive, which means the caliper insert won't seat at the same spot. I'm not claiming this is what's actually happening, just pointing out that there are possible reasons for what you observed/measured. I would suggest taking repeated measurements with the bullet in question and at least one of the other three bullets. That way, you can develop a feel for the precision you are able to get when taking the measurements several times with the same bullet. It's good to have some feel for this so that when you get one measurement that differs significantly from the others (i.e. .007" difference), you have a better idea of whether it might be a measuring technique issue, or some dimensional difference between the bullets that isn't a bullet dimension we typically measure, but affects the output nonetheless.

I am also in agreement with LVLAaron. The "distance to touching" measurement is a reference point, nothing more. With the tools we typically use to take such measurements, the accuracy of such measurements may sometimes be questionable. Nonetheless, as a reference point it will work just fine if the accuracy isn't way off (i.e. within a couple or three thousandths or so). A single bullet measurement will work just fine for that purpose. I am stupidly OCD, so I make a randomly selected set of 10 bullets from every individual Lot# as my "Measurement Set", and take/record measurements with all 10 of them. I then use the average value as my reference point. The main reason I do this (at least in my mind) is to minimize the effect of bullet dimensional variance and user error. But you can do the same thing with a single bullet, especially if that one bullet gives a measurement that is reproducible over several repetitions.

The average measurement I use for "touching" might actually be .003" into the lands, or it could be .003" off. But when used as a reference point only to set up a seating depth test, it won't matter. The target will ultimately reveal which seating depth provided the best grouping, and the CBTO measurements of loaded rounds can be reproduced with very good precision. If the bullet is really .009" off the lands instead of .012" off because it was actually .003" into the lands for what I measured as "touching" won't matter. I can still reproduce the correct CBTO measurement for loaded rounds that also produced the best grouping.
 
Although the 3 bullets were similar to within .001" in the dimensions that you measured, one possibility is that they may differ in nose diameter at a given point on the ogive, which means the caliper insert won't seat at the same spot. I'm not claiming this is what's actually happening, just pointing out that there are possible reasons for what you observed/measured. I would suggest taking repeated measurements with the bullet in question and at least one of the other three bullets. That way, you can develop a feel for the precision you are able to get when taking the measurements several times with the same bullet. It's good to have some feel for this so that when you get one measurement that differs significantly from the others (i.e. .007" difference), you have a better idea of whether it might be a measuring technique issue, or some dimensional difference between the bullets that isn't a bullet dimension we typically measure, but affects the output nonetheless.

I am also in agreement with LVLAaron. The "distance to touching" measurement is a reference point, nothing more. With the tools we typically use to take such measurements, the accuracy of such measurements may sometimes be questionable. Nonetheless, as a reference point it will work just fine if the accuracy isn't way off (i.e. within a couple or three thousandths or so). A single bullet measurement will work just fine for that purpose. I am stupidly OCD, so I make a randomly selected set of 10 bullets from every individual Lot# as my "Measurement Set", and take/record measurements with all 10 of them. I then use the average value as my reference point. The main reason I do this (at least in my mind) is to minimize the effect of bullet dimensional variance and user error. But you can do the same thing with a single bullet, especially if that one bullet gives a measurement that is reproducible over several repetitions.

The average measurement I use for "touching" might actually be .003" into the lands, or it could be .003" off. But when used as a reference point only to set up a seating depth test, it won't matter. The target will ultimately reveal which seating depth provided the best grouping, and the CBTO measurements of loaded rounds can be reproduced with very good precision. If the bullet is really .009" off the lands instead of .012" off because it was actually .003" into the lands for what I measured as "touching" won't matter. I can still reproduce the correct CBTO measurement for loaded rounds that also produced the best grouping.
I see what you’re saying . I’m a little OCD myself , 40 year machinist so I want accuracy dammit ! Lol . Erik Cortina talks about starting at lands and working back in .003 increments till you find the node . When bullets vary by more than .003 , how are you supposed to do it accurately ?
 
Instead of thinking about it like "distance to lands" - Think about it like "distance to my reference point"

Finding the distance to lands is an art and depends on a lot of things. So lets not worry about it. Let's find a reference point instead of an exact measurement to something that doesn't matter.

When I get a new barrel I want to measure, I stuff a bullet in with the hornady tool, moderate pressure, one time, and that's my reference point. I dont care if the bullet is 5 thou in the lands or 2 thou short - You'll never find exactly where they are with the tools most people have.

Cram a bullet in there. Take it out. Measure your distance. That's your starting point to measure seating depth. Again, it's a general reference point, not an exact measurement of the lands - and that's fine. It doesn't matter.
I cannot disagree agree more with this direction. Finding the exact distance to the lands is not only important, but also rather easy. Get a bolt disassembly tool and progressive seat the bullet deeper in the case and then inspect the bullet using a 10X loupe. There are a few other ways but using the Hornady OAL gage is literally one of the most unreliable methods I’ve ever seen. I bet most will agree with me when I say that I pitched that POS years ago. Might as well use some Shoe Goo to glue a bullet on the end of a Twizzlers licorice stick, because it will be about as accurate as using the Hornady OAL gage.
Dave
 
I cannot disagree agree more with this direction. Finding the exact distance to the lands is not only important, but also rather easy. Get a bolt disassembly tool and progressive seat the bullet deeper in the case and then inspect the bullet using a 10X loupe. There are a few other ways but using the Hornady OAL gage is literally one of the most unreliable methods I’ve ever seen. I bet most will agree with me when I say that I pitched that POS years ago. Might as well use some Shoe Goo to glue a bullet on the end of a Twizzlers licorice stick, because it will be about as accurate as using the Hornady OAL gage.
Dave
Just because it doesn’t work for you, doesn’t mean it doesn’t work.
 
I cannot disagree agree more with this direction. Finding the exact distance to the lands is not only important, but also rather easy. Get a bolt disassembly tool and progressive seat the bullet deeper in the case and then inspect the bullet using a 10X loupe. There are a few other ways but using the Hornady OAL gage is literally one of the most unreliable methods I’ve ever seen. I bet most will agree with me when I say that I pitched that POS years ago. Might as well use some Shoe Goo to glue a bullet on the end of a Twizzlers licorice stick, because it will be about as accurate as using the Hornady OAL gage.
Dave
I haven’t heard anything good about Hornady either , but no hands on experience with it .
 
I see what you’re saying . I’m a little OCD myself , 40 year machinist so I want accuracy dammit ! Lol . Erik Cortina talks about starting at lands and working back in .003 increments till you find the node . When bullets vary by more than .003 , how are you supposed to do it accurately ?

Buy better bullets
 
Instead of thinking about it like "distance to lands" - Think about it like "distance to my reference point"

Finding the distance to lands is an art and depends on a lot of things. So lets not worry about it. Let's find a reference point instead of an exact measurement to something that doesn't matter.

When I get a new barrel I want to measure, I stuff a bullet in with the hornady tool, moderate pressure, one time, and that's my reference point. I dont care if the bullet is 5 thou in the lands or 2 thou short - You'll never find exactly where they are with the tools most people have.

Cram a bullet in there. Take it out. Measure your distance. That's your starting point to measure seating depth. Again, it's a general reference point, not an exact measurement of the lands - and that's fine. It doesn't matter.
Have you tried one of these? Same thing as the Hornady only I like its "feel" better. https://www.brownells.com/reloading...m-dial-ammo-measurement-system-prod55552.aspx
 
I have not . Isn’t that for checking base to shoulder datum ?
Comes with both, take a closer look on brownells and you'll see. I ordered one then got the extra "holder" and now have both set up so I don't have to take it apart each time (yea, I might be lazy!).
 
The Datum Dial does not find land contact. That's not what it's for.
You can measure your shoulder or CBTO with it.
Okumacaptain, you're using a good method/tool, but your variable is neck seating force.
You need to remove that variable

 

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