Factory Rem 700 to Wildcat $$$ Pitfalls???
- Thread starter kverval
- Start date
I would think maybe a 22br instead. With the PPC, someone correct me if I am wrong, but you will need to have the bolt face opened up for the PPC cartridge, or get a bolt with the PPC face. With a 22br, you can use a 308(.473") bolt face. You might even be able to get a 22-250, and have someone set the barrel back and rechamber to the 22br. Would be the simplest route, and possibly the least expensive route.
Kverval -
Howdy !
IMHO:
Some wildcats are possible w/o having to $$$ either "custom " dies, or " custom " reamers.
For this approach, an existing chamber reamer is run-in short , or in certain circumstances.... run-in long.
One .224" cal wildcat possibility is: run a .224 - 6mm ( " .224 TTH " ) reamer in " short ", to arrive
@ chamber w/ .466" base diam.
Cases are formed from 7 X 64 Brenneke, which is .308 bolt face compatible.
A stock ( LEE ) 6.5 X 55 FL die ( w/ its internals removed ) is utlized as the case forming die.
A " perch " is made out of a .308 shell holder, a 1/4-20 flat head machine screw of < .466" head diam; and a jam nut. In-use, the " perch" is snapped into place in the press ram ( primer ram arm removed on a Rockchucker ).
Brass to be formed is sat atop the perch, and press operated to advance brass up-into the forming die.
As shoulders are shoved downward on the cases, excess brass extrudes out the top of the open-topped
die.
Cases emerge from the die in near-net shape, and are nominally .224" cal. They are rough cut-off for length, then detail trimmed to final case oal desired.
A very slight inside neck ream might be needed, whereafter the cases are given an outside neck tun to final neck OD and neck wall thickness desired.
In 6mm form, the case has 51.2gr H20 capacity. The .224" cal wildcat version would be of slightly less capacity ( not of much consequence, as powder in the neck capability would likely not be exploited ).
Loading / re-loading the case can be accomplished w/o having to use the " perch ", utilizing existing dies.
The resulting .224" cal wildcat would be capable of use @ 1,000yd , w/ a suitably set-up rifle.
Anywayz... that's an example of one possible way to go.
With regards,
357Mag
Howdy !
IMHO:
Some wildcats are possible w/o having to $$$ either "custom " dies, or " custom " reamers.
For this approach, an existing chamber reamer is run-in short , or in certain circumstances.... run-in long.
One .224" cal wildcat possibility is: run a .224 - 6mm ( " .224 TTH " ) reamer in " short ", to arrive
@ chamber w/ .466" base diam.
Cases are formed from 7 X 64 Brenneke, which is .308 bolt face compatible.
A stock ( LEE ) 6.5 X 55 FL die ( w/ its internals removed ) is utlized as the case forming die.
A " perch " is made out of a .308 shell holder, a 1/4-20 flat head machine screw of < .466" head diam; and a jam nut. In-use, the " perch" is snapped into place in the press ram ( primer ram arm removed on a Rockchucker ).
Brass to be formed is sat atop the perch, and press operated to advance brass up-into the forming die.
As shoulders are shoved downward on the cases, excess brass extrudes out the top of the open-topped
die.
Cases emerge from the die in near-net shape, and are nominally .224" cal. They are rough cut-off for length, then detail trimmed to final case oal desired.
A very slight inside neck ream might be needed, whereafter the cases are given an outside neck tun to final neck OD and neck wall thickness desired.
In 6mm form, the case has 51.2gr H20 capacity. The .224" cal wildcat version would be of slightly less capacity ( not of much consequence, as powder in the neck capability would likely not be exploited ).
Loading / re-loading the case can be accomplished w/o having to use the " perch ", utilizing existing dies.
The resulting .224" cal wildcat would be capable of use @ 1,000yd , w/ a suitably set-up rifle.
Anywayz... that's an example of one possible way to go.
With regards,
357Mag
CatShooter
kverval said:
Aside from the bolt face size issue - both the PPC and BR cases have a very bad history of feeding in repeaters.
You might consider a 222 Mag (they are "something different" and very accurate)... you can find complete rifles on Gunbroker all the time.
OR an improved version of something that is a known entity. There are 700 "Classics" that are available in 221 FurBall, 220 Swift, 250 Savage, 257 Roberts, and the Classic makes a great walking varminter - I have one in 221 FurBall.
Be careful about getting too off the beaten track - it can get real expensive, real fast.
snert
Silver $$ Contributor
22PPC is a pain to make. Same thing, for all intents and purposes, (in a walking varmint rifle) as a 222 mag. Ya, i have both and ya the PPC has a bit more accuracy capability...But I have never met a coyote who knew the difference, and 222 mag saves a lot of time at the relaoding bench.
If you have to have an off the beaten path, look at a 222, 222 mag, a Swift, a necked down 243..
Just be advised that with the exception of 222, and Swift the others require dies that are more expensive, unless you find them used.
I like the following matrix when considering an "off-beat" carry rifle.
How much energy do I need to deliver and at what distance? (This is a pure balistics/math equation)
What action do i already have or can I get for a song?
Is there a reasonable gunsmith nearby who will do the work I want?
How esoteric do I need to be to kill a...whatever?
When I decide those things i settle on cartridge that will deliver that.
You might do just fine to buy a stock rifle and just put it in your favorite stock.
If you have to have an off the beaten path, look at a 222, 222 mag, a Swift, a necked down 243..
Just be advised that with the exception of 222, and Swift the others require dies that are more expensive, unless you find them used.
I like the following matrix when considering an "off-beat" carry rifle.
How much energy do I need to deliver and at what distance? (This is a pure balistics/math equation)
What action do i already have or can I get for a song?
Is there a reasonable gunsmith nearby who will do the work I want?
How esoteric do I need to be to kill a...whatever?
When I decide those things i settle on cartridge that will deliver that.
You might do just fine to buy a stock rifle and just put it in your favorite stock.
I have just taken a 700 223 that had an "undesirable" chamber/throat and only modest accuracy and sent it to Hart to have the thing redone in 222m, looked at the 22-204, etc 223Ai and thought
-- why waste all the time, powder primers bullets to fire form when I can get a more accurate chamber and not fire forming, I have had 221, 222, 223, 22-250 and this seemed to be the better choice without going bonkers on barrel burning over bore stuff like the 243 etc.
supplies being short these days it seemed to be the smart thing to do.]
Bob
-- why waste all the time, powder primers bullets to fire form when I can get a more accurate chamber and not fire forming, I have had 221, 222, 223, 22-250 and this seemed to be the better choice without going bonkers on barrel burning over bore stuff like the 243 etc.
supplies being short these days it seemed to be the smart thing to do.]
Bob
Ackman
Gold $$ Contributor
bheadboy said:
You and all the others who just don't get it. There's no wasted "time, powder primers bullets" and "fireforming"with the 22-204 and .223AI. You load 'em and go splatter stuff.
Chambers are no less accurate.
Congrats on the 222M. You'll be stuck using Rem. brass.
You load 'em and go splatter stuff --
well if I lived where there are pd, etc. that would most likely work, try that in Fl. or Ga where you load, then go to the range, burn the ammo/bbl at targets --load then take your once a year 1950 mile drive out west to shoot the caliber at beastes, or you fire form this year and shoot the AI load next year, IF YOU GET TO GO AGAIN!
all of us do not have the same opportunities.
Bob
well if I lived where there are pd, etc. that would most likely work, try that in Fl. or Ga where you load, then go to the range, burn the ammo/bbl at targets --load then take your once a year 1950 mile drive out west to shoot the caliber at beastes, or you fire form this year and shoot the AI load next year, IF YOU GET TO GO AGAIN!
all of us do not have the same opportunities.
Bob
What is the boltface? 223 or 308? This will limit you choices. Re brass for the 222 rem mag...If you can find any your choice is rem, but you can use RWS 5.6 x 50 M but will pay 1$+ each. I'm told their quality is very close to Lapua. Wish i' d known this earlier as I paid close to this for rem 222 mag brass for a 6 x47 build. Good luck.
If you aret getting enough accuracy out of you forming loads to hit pdogs then I might be looking at the barrel in the first place. I agree it is nice to have a standard cal sometimes, using "it a pain to form AI cases" is a pretty poor excuse. If you don't want one that's cool but misleading someone saying its a pain to form is t true.
CatShooter
Ackman said:
Well, normally, Rem brass is fairly low on my list (but above Federal), but I owned two 204s and gave up on the calibre because ALL the 204 brass sucks - I went to a 20 Tac because of Lapua brass.
But I have a 222 Mag BR rifle that sat in the back of the safe for a very looooong time and I dug it out last year, put a new Leupold BR scope on it, and decided to get all of my brass to one starting place.
So I pulled what was loaded, washed, cleaned, annealed, and polished all 850+ cases... then I sorted by weight, the whole damn bunch.
The cases were bought in two large lots, and when weighed out, they separated into two lots, with a few stragglers. The whole bunch was +/- 1.04 grains, and each lot, when taken separately, was +/- less then 1/2 grain.
Neck run-out is very good, and heads are harder than normal Rem cases.
It might be because Remington makes a run of 222 Mag brass every-so-often, so they start with a clean machine set up, run the cases, and tear it down... where-as normal cases are made continuously until the cases start being out of spec, then the machine is reset - but that allows a lot of close to out spec stuff to go out.
Same with Winchester 6mm Rem - they make a run of it every few years (it is sold before it is made)... and the stuff is super great.
Anyway, I have no issues with Remington 222 Mag brass, and if you are good at sniffing stuff out, there is Norma 222 Mag brass floating around - but it is hard to find.
just for education purposes, I have had the following wildcats
2 r lovell - In 1948
219 mashburn Zipper in 1954
6.5-06 in 1963
6x47 in 1966 -222m
243x308 in 1973 (Pre 7-08)
280 AI
260AI
7-08 AI
7-30 Waters
It is not a matter of accuracy on forming loads - the reason for the "improved" version is gain something - thus if you only go once a year or every two years- and I am 80 years old there is more to be considered than to "load and go splat.
btw I picked up 400 new R/P 222m brass this week
Bob
2 r lovell - In 1948
219 mashburn Zipper in 1954
6.5-06 in 1963
6x47 in 1966 -222m
243x308 in 1973 (Pre 7-08)
280 AI
260AI
7-08 AI
7-30 Waters
It is not a matter of accuracy on forming loads - the reason for the "improved" version is gain something - thus if you only go once a year or every two years- and I am 80 years old there is more to be considered than to "load and go splat.
btw I picked up 400 new R/P 222m brass this week
Bob
If you have a .308 bolt face. I would get a 14 twist 6mm br. Shoot all the various light critter bullets and have a blast. If it has the smaller boltface I would make a .222 Great accuracy and great barrel life on both. The 6mmbr You can get a Harrels dies for cheaper than a redding bushing die and its fitted to your chamber. The 6br will have better ballistics than the 22ppc or 22br. Wyatts makes a box and follower for the BR cases so they will feed.
Ackman
Gold $$ Contributor
CatShooter said:
My opinion of .378" size Rem. brass is based off .223 and .221 - 17MIV which is too soft and has me not liking it at all. I've still about 1000 222Mag cases left from the 80's but haven't reloaded them and don't know how loose the primer pockets are. Back then getting deuce mag brass was no problem. That gun was sold many years ago. It shot very well but the 50gr. working load velocity was about the same as a .223. If current Rem. 222M brass, even if hard to find, is better than their other stuff then more power to them.
AckleymanII
Gold $$ Contributor
Quote:
"Be careful about getting too off the beaten track - it can get real expensive, real fast".
Not to mention, often not much of a pay off for a lot of money and time spent.
"Be careful about getting too off the beaten track - it can get real expensive, real fast".
Not to mention, often not much of a pay off for a lot of money and time spent.
current R/P 222m brass - to those concerned about quality
I picked up 400 R/P 222m brass bagged un opened.
sat down with scale and the results are as follows
3% light below 92.2gr
8% heavy above 93.3gr
89% 92.75gr +/- .55gr
of the total - 64% +/- .2gr.
lightest 91.8gr and heaviest 94.2 for a spread of 2.4 gr
not bad, necks will not need turning as they are very consistent.
considering this is not a 600-1000 yd caliber I think I will keep the cases.
Bob
I picked up 400 R/P 222m brass bagged un opened.
sat down with scale and the results are as follows
3% light below 92.2gr
8% heavy above 93.3gr
89% 92.75gr +/- .55gr
of the total - 64% +/- .2gr.
lightest 91.8gr and heaviest 94.2 for a spread of 2.4 gr
not bad, necks will not need turning as they are very consistent.
considering this is not a 600-1000 yd caliber I think I will keep the cases.
Bob
Ackman: if you want to sell the 222 rem mag brass it should go quickly. I had to shop a bit to get some...three sources, for a 6x47 based on this case. 100+ cases were still in red rem boxes whose address didn't have a zip code! The seller annealed them all prior to shipping...some really nice people here. 100 were in the rem green bag and 300+ were in a seal a meal bag...half not fired. The red boxed cases had thick necks, so i' m turning. Of course I wish they were all the same but it will one day shoot if I could only get the reamer from pt&g.
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