f-class open accuracy question

[Laurie]

I agree with both Erik and suberjc on this. I've had and still have rifles that string shots laterally at every distance with loads that don't suit them Sometimes, the verticals are fantastic.

Yes, team coaches pick shooters who have the stamina, mental attitudes, and equipment to consistently shoot small verticals at long ranges. But, they also know when a lateral shift was not induced by the wind and was down to the shooter or the kit and people who produce them aren't picked either - it may just take a few shots more for the coach to realise what's happening while verticals stare back at you from the plotting sheet pattern. Top wind coaches can read amazingly small and subtle changes in my experience and while they get readings wrong, they do so a lot less than most ordinary mortals.

 

[Cigarcop]

I don't believe KT is talking about groups that have 7" of horizontal at 300 yds!......if theres wind (L or R) he's just holding center and not holding off which will result in some horizontal.

If you think he won't do well in F Class with his method shoot against him sometime and perhaps you'll be surprised

 

[KT]

guys, I am wondering what the truthful accuracy limits are of your f-class rigs, and what you would consider a competent gun.

I know these aren't designed to shoot 100 yard groups in the 1's but they should shoot pretty well. I have built 2 f-class rifles over the last few years (one is a straight 260, the other a 6.5x55 imp). both rifles shoot well in my opinion, but I can never seem to shoot those consistent .200 groups. it seems I can keep them in the 3's and 4's without much trouble, this is my honest limit. the occasional .1 or .2 but 5 out of 7 groups will be in the .320 to .450 range.

what do your f guns shoot consistently? is a gun in the .3-.4 range what you would consider "good enough". just curious is all.
I am going to use the 6.5x55 this year and it has just been giving me fits lately. it seems to really start opening up when it gets warm, but in f open they get hot, as you know.

Joe,
Couple questions for you.
What is the round count on the barrel?
What barrel contour are you using?
About how many rounds do you shoot before you start to see the groups open up? i.e. 5 or 10 in a row?
Have you done a ladder test or a Cortinia test to make sure your in the center of your node?
What bullet are you using and what speed?

KT

 

[Laurie]

I don't believe KT is talking about groups that have 7" of horizontal at 300 yds!......if theres wind (L or R) he's just holding center and not holding off which will result in some horizontal.

I don't think anybody is suggesting that - that's a 2.3-MOA spread - but a group that produces half-MOA lateral spreads at short ranges is very likely to produce 1-MOA at 1,000 and that's not only more than enough to drop points on the F-Class target, but to confuse one's wind reading too depending on whether the sideways movement due to the group pattern reinforces or weakens any movement due to wind.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

Barrel harmonics affect horizontal just like vertical. Barrels don't move strictly in the vertical plane. There is too much talk of only reading vertical.

 

[Erik Cortina]

Barrel harmonics affect horizontal just like vertical. Barrels don't move strictly in the vertical plane. There is too much talk of only reading vertical.

+1

 

[noload]

I shoot a 6X47 Lapua in midrange. I was once told by one of my hero's, John Brewer, that in order to be truly competitive in F-Open at 600, the gun should be doing consistent .75 in groups at 300 yards. It's sort of worked out that way for me. That's what I try to load to when shooting VLDs. Well actually VLDs is all I shoot.

I agree with all of this.

 

[ShootDots]

I shoot a 6X47 Lapua in midrange. I was once told by one of my hero's, John Brewer, that in order to be truly competitive in F-Open at 600, the gun should be doing consistent .75 in groups at 300 yards. It's sort of worked out that way for me. That's what I try to load to when shooting VLDs. Well actually VLDs is all I shoot.

I agree with all of this.

For ALL of my F-Class Open rifles, my standard (key being MY standard) is from 0.750 to 1.250 CONSISTENTLY at 300 yards. Now there are times when I blow a 1.50 and more times when I will get sub .500 groups at 300. The exception to this rule of mine is my Dashers. I want .500 to .750 consistently. Of course there may be a time or two when I blow up to an inch and many times below .500. But my "Non-Dasher" rifles hover between .750 and 1.250. So essentially I am in T-Total agreement with the above quotes.. If you can stay down at .750 you "technically" could get a 200-20+ "X's"!! Although technical concepts and reality often collide!

 

[noload]

I think on a calm day, that 5 shot, .25 MOA ,300yd group, turns into a 1MOA+ group after 20 shots due to the shooters stamina and composure. And a little wind to the mix and you have a 1.5 MOA (20 shot group). Maybe some guns are true 1/2 moa guns, problem is shooters aren't.

 

[joejo]

Joe,
Couple questions for you.
What is the round count on the barrel?
What barrel contour are you using?
About how many rounds do you shoot before you start to see the groups open up? i.e. 5 or 10 in a row?
Have you done a ladder test or a Cortinia test to make sure your in the center of your node?
What bullet are you using and what speed?

KT

~250 rounds
1.250 straight
after 10-15 but I need it to hold at least 25 my strings are 20 shots plus sighters
using jlk 140's at ~2980

I am going to start at square one this weekend with erik Cortina's method. I have a match in two weeks so I need to get on this. I am just waiting on bullets I ran out this past weekend.

target from this past weekend. 5 shot groups

the top is the 140 jlk and the bottom is 139 lapua that random hole up top is just a fouler I fired first. this was slow fire.

 

[JimSee]

Joe, I initially did my load development at 100 in the first 25-35 rounds down the barrel, mostly based off previous loads that worked in the same chambering. I would then go to a small local match and shoot a COF to get the barrel settled in and the velocities leveled out. At that point after about 100-150 rounds I would do a more extensive load development based off the results I was getting with the initial "generic" load. I would often do a 600 yard ladder test to really tune in to the middle of a node, but I had a 600 yard range in my back yard so it was convenient. All my Ladder test would be shot 3 times, usually in the evening, the next morning and the following evening. I would use a video camera on the target to plot the shots and charge weights after replay of the video. From there I would expect my final load to group under 2" at 600. On occasion I would get a barrel that could hold under 1.5" in ideal conditions but that was more common with my 600 f-o guns 6mm br and 6 xc. In the 7mm I was content with 2" for 5 shots. I did have one barrel in 284 that did under 1.5" @ 600 pretty consistently and it was the only 284 win I shot a clean 200 with at 1000 yards. I think most of the competitive f-o shooters hear are looking for there rifles to be capable of .2-.3 moa at shorter distances, and as Erik mentioned at 1000 yards lots of variables to confirm .2-.3 capable. So shorter range testing/development usually will get you there. I will say I miss my 600 yard range back in WI, it was flat and the wind was non-existent most evenings, a great place to test.

 

[rpierce]

Jims right about his range. I loved load testing at his place. It would be dead calm in late evenings, almost like shooting in a tunnel. I shot five 5 shot groups in a row at 600 yds at his house once and the biggest group was around 1.8 inches. That was with the 6br. Barrel had less than 15 rounds down it when I started the test. Another bonus was I had my reloading stuff setup 50 yards from his shooting shack. Made it easy to find a great load real quick.

 

[Erik Cortina]

Here is the bottom line, you need a gun that in perfect conditions will shoot 20X's at whatever distance you are shooting at. If your gun is not capable of doing that, you are handicapping yourself.

 

[JimSee]

Erik, you might be right there but I would rather have a gun that shot 20 10's in the worst conditions possible.

 

[Marksman63]

Here is the bottom line, you need a gun that in perfect conditions will shoot 20X's at whatever distance you are shooting at. If your gun is not capable of doing that, you are handicapping yourself.

+1
In theory you just need a half MOA gun

 

[ShootDots]

Erik, you might be right there but I would rather have a gun that shot 20 10's in the worst conditions possible.

Jim, you will NOT get a 1 M.O.A. rifle to shoot 1 M.O.A. in poor conditions. It is difficult enough to get a 1/2 M.O.A. rifle to shoot 1 M.O.A. with 20 shots at 1000 yards in decent weather, let alone trying conditions. If you have a rifle capable of 5+ shots in 1/3rd to 1/2 M.O.A. IN PERFECT CONDITIONS (i.e. no heat waves and little or NO wind) from 600 yards out to 1000, you have a rifle capable of winning ANY match, anywhere>>>IF you do your part. So Erik is essentially correct.

At our TSRA State Championship last weekend, we had mild conditions on Saturday and Sunday morning. There were several "cleans" (1000 yards), however, ALL of those cleans used ALL 10" of the 10 ring to clean the target! After the 1st match on Sunday, when the Texas winds went back to "normal", there were NO MORE CLEANS! That is saying a lot..

 

[JimSee]

Erik, you might be right there but I would rather have a gun that shot 20 10's in the worst conditions possible.

Jim, you will NOT get a 1 M.O.A. rifle to shoot 1 M.O.A. in poor conditions. It is difficult enough to get a 1/2 M.O.A. rifle to shoot 1 M.O.A. with 20 shots at 1000 yards in decent weather, let alone trying conditions. If you have a rifle capable of 5+ shots in 1/3rd to 1/2 M.O.A. IN PERFECT CONDITIONS (i.e. no heat waves and little or NO wind) from 600 yards out to 1000, you have a rifle capable of winning ANY match, anywhere>>>IF you do your part. So Erik is essentially correct.

At our TSRA State Championship last weekend, we had mild conditions on Saturday and Sunday morning. There were several "cleans" (1000 yards), however, ALL of those cleans used ALL 10" of the 10 ring to clean the target! After the 1st match on Sunday, when the Texas winds went back to "normal", there were NO MORE CLEANS! That is saying a lot..

Man I'm sorry I thought the little winky smile face would have let you guys know it was a joke.

 

[ShootDots]

Erik, you might be right there but I would rather have a gun that shot 20 10's in the worst conditions possible.

Jim, you will NOT get a 1 M.O.A. rifle to shoot 1 M.O.A. in poor conditions. It is difficult enough to get a 1/2 M.O.A. rifle to shoot 1 M.O.A. with 20 shots at 1000 yards in decent weather, let alone trying conditions. If you have a rifle capable of 5+ shots in 1/3rd to 1/2 M.O.A. IN PERFECT CONDITIONS (i.e. no heat waves and little or NO wind) from 600 yards out to 1000, you have a rifle capable of winning ANY match, anywhere>>>IF you do your part. So Erik is essentially correct.

At our TSRA State Championship last weekend, we had mild conditions on Saturday and Sunday morning. There were several "cleans" (1000 yards), however, ALL of those cleans used ALL 10" of the 10 ring to clean the target! After the 1st match on Sunday, when the Texas winds went back to "normal", there were NO MORE CLEANS! That is saying a lot..

Man I'm sorry I thought the little winky smile face would have let you guys know it was a joke.

No Jim>> I am sorry.. I did not even see that til you mentioned it in your reply! I should pay CLOSER attention to what I am reading and quit formulating, in my mind's eye, what the person is saying before I finish reading their reply! I guess the joke is on me for NOT paying close enough attention! I apologize Jim..

 

[jrm850]

Please don't tell me that there aren't guns that will shoot 20 10s in the worst conditions possible. I was hanging on to the notion that some of ya'll had that advantage. The only other explanation is that everybody just shoot better than... wait, there HAS to be guns that shoot 20 10s in any condition. ;D

 

[ShootDots]

Please don't tell me that there aren't guns that will shoot 20 10s in the worst conditions possible. I was hanging on to the notion that some of ya'll had that advantage. The only other explanation is that everybody just shoot better than... wait, there HAS to be guns that shoot 20 10s in any condition. ;D

THERE IS JRM!!! All you need to do is visit Alice, who lives in Wonderland, and purchase one from her! Finding her is the problem!! AND some of the guys who score themselves in "Approved Matches" score VERY WELL in horrible conditions!