f-class open accuracy question

[joejo]

guys, I am wondering what the truthful accuracy limits are of your f-class rigs, and what you would consider a competent gun.

I know these aren't designed to shoot 100 yard groups in the 1's but they should shoot pretty well. I have built 2 f-class rifles over the last few years (one is a straight 260, the other a 6.5x55 imp). both rifles shoot well in my opinion, but I can never seem to shoot those consistent .200 groups. it seems I can keep them in the 3's and 4's without much trouble, this is my honest limit. the occasional .1 or .2 but 5 out of 7 groups will be in the .320 to .450 range.

what do your f guns shoot consistently? is a gun in the .3-.4 range what you would consider "good enough". just curious is all.
I am going to use the 6.5x55 this year and it has just been giving me fits lately. it seems to really start opening up when it gets warm, but in f open they get hot, as you know.

 

[bsumoba]

Guys shooting 6 Dashers or the 6 caliber cartridges like the 6 BR or BRX for F-Class can hold 100 yard groups in the 1's for 5 shots.

My tactical 6.5 creedmoor rifle which is not a F-Class rifle and is a varmint contour barrel can consistently shoot in the mid/high 2's for 5-shots.

My 284 Shehane can hold a 5-shot group in the mid/high 2's no problem. A 10 shot group might do low 3's I would guess, but I've never shot 10-shot groups with my F-Open 284 Shehane before at 100 yards. To me, that's a waste of ammo

If your gun can hold sub-3/8" groups for long strings at 100 yards, then I say that is doing pretty well. IMO, get a gun that does this and can hold vertical well at distance and the rest is going to be the shooter and their ability to read the wind, which is probably going to be the limiting factor in the equation.

 

[dcali]

A gun that will shoot better than .25 MOA five shot groups repeatably at 100 yards will win benchrest matches. Check out the supershoot results, which get posted online if you need evidence.

In F class, you will get rapidly diminishing returns once you're below .5 MOA because wind and drop variation dominate. My Open 6XC shot an average of about .45 MOA. I've since rebarreled to .308 and I've got it currently shooting at about .6 MOA, but I suspect I can get it down to .5 MOA or maybe a little better. I'll be happy with that. It's much harder to get to .3 MOA than it is to get to .5 MOA. Getting under .3 MOA is downright obsessive, and not really necessary.

Basically, I'm good with a legitimate 1/2 MOA gun. Anything more and I keep working at it.

By the way, when I say .5 MOA, I mean something along the lines of the average of 5 five-shot groups, not your best group of the afternoon.

 

[lawrence97]

To be competitive I expect my rig (284 shehane)to print .25-.5 moa at 200yds for 3-5 shots in a group. When I do shoot at 100 .3's is an average.

The dasher will shoot in the .1s at 100 and .2"-.3"at 200.

 

[joejo]

By the way, when I say .5 MOA, I mean something along the lines of the average of 5 five-shot groups, not your best group of the afternoon.

I think I try to compare my gun to others results when they say their gun shoots in the 1's but I don't think they shoot in the 1's all the time. they may get that .180 group but the other 4 or 5 they shoot are in the 3-4 range.

 

[ballison]

Here is a great article that just came out. It is talking about hitting steel targets at 1000 yds, but it still can be pertinent to F-Class. In short, going from a 1 MOA rifle to a 1/4 MOA rifle only gives you a 1% better chance of hitting a 20" steel plate at 1000 yards.

http://precisionrifleblog.com/2015/04/15/how-much-does-group-size-matter/

 

[dcali]

By the way, when I say .5 MOA, I mean something along the lines of the average of 5 five-shot groups, not your best group of the afternoon.

I think I try to compare my gun to others results when they say their gun shoots in the 1's but I don't think they shoot in the 1's all the time. they may get that .180 group but the other 4 or 5 they shoot are in the 3-4 range.

I think you're being generous. I bet most of rifles on the line at a given local match cannot even hold .5 MOA for two 5 shot groups, but you'll still hear tales of "shooting in the 1's." It's just more fun to remember the best group rather than the worst. Unfortunately, it's the worst that will give you those 9's, and I remember the 9's a lot more than the X's :-[ (I know, I need to turn that thinking around. Easier said than done).

 

[BT1]

I shoot both a straight 284 and a 7 rsaum in F-Open. I try my best to shoot the 1000 yard matches when ever I can.

Yes, I just see a reference to shooting steel and 1%, while I was typing this. F-Open is a hard game. Many matches are won with x count or 1 or 2 points separating 1st from 5th. How competitive do you want to be? Just out for fun? Then a .5 moa rig at the distance you want to shoot is just fine. Winning at 1000 yards?? Ask the top shooters. They all shoot rigs that can hold the vertical I list below.

I do all initial load testing for any new barrel at 300 yards. I know, I have to be different I want to see less than .25" of vertical. Do not worry too much about the group size, just vertical spread. Pick the best loads and then run 5 shot groups at 600 yards. Take the best and shoot 5 shot groups at 1000 yards. 600 vertical is in the 1 to 1.5" range, 1000 I am happy with anything less than 5". The best are down in the 2 to 3" vertical range worst 5". Any more than that and it is back to the drawing board. I agree that the wind will make or break your string, not that you can hold x ring vertical. It is just you may save a few 10's or X's that go just out at 1:00 or 7:00 that you would have got if the rig shot just a bit better vertical.

Steve

 

[ballison]

I think you're being generous. I bet most of rifles on the line at a given local match cannot even hold .5 MOA for two 5 shot groups, but you'll still hear tales of "shooting in the 1's." It's just more fun to remember the best group rather than the worst.

+1000000000000000000000000

 

[6BRinNZ]

OP - consistency is king not how small - if groups are opening up then it could just be the way you selected the load.

 

[RHux]

PrecisionRifleblog.com is posting a series of articles on real world gains in accuracy.

 

[Erik Cortina]

David Mann just shot a 600-31X at 1,000 yards yesterday at the TX LR championship, so make sure your guns are capable of doing that in a calm day or you will not be competitive.

Some guys shot 598's and placed them in 4th place. A 595 gets you to the bottom of the pack in the HM category in calm conditions.

I like my guns to shoot in the .1's at 100 yards with low ES.

 

[dmoran]

It doesn't matter what they shoot like at 100yds..... the truth comes at the intended distance.
You could have 3 separate loads that all produce low ES and tight 100yd groups, but one of them will be more accurate at 1000 (seen this scenario play out repeatedly over the years), with vertical dispersion at 1000 being the key - IME).
1/2-MOA at 1000 is the "water-line", with desire to have ammo that is vertically capable of less.
My 2-Cents
Donovan

 

[suberjc]

I shoot a 6X47 Lapua in midrange. I was once told by one of my hero's, John Brewer, that in order to be truly competitive in F-Open at 600, the gun should be doing consistent .75 in groups at 300 yards. It's sort of worked out that way for me. That's what I try to load to when shooting VLDs. Well actually VLDs is all I shoot.

 

[KT]

I may differ from others in group relevance. When I'm working on loads. I want the load with the least amount of vertical possible. My home range only goes to 300 yards. My general rule of thumb is that a load at 300 yards need to hold 1inch or less vertical in the Group. It must due this for 2 10 shot groups. The load MUST be repeatable!

I don't worry so much about the left to right in the group. It's all about vertical in F-class. Not group size. I would do your initial load development at 100 yards using Erik's test or something similar. Then once your close work your way out farther, if you have access to a range. The 3 or 5 shot 100 yard groups don't tell you much. The only thing they are good for is bragging. I have seen so many guys show me a (.1 or .2) 5 shot group at 100 yards ( or as Jim Crofts calls them "wallet groups"). Then they shoot at 1k and are shooting 9 ring to 9 ring vertically.

 

[Erik Cortina]

I may differ from others in group relevance. When I'm working on loads. I want the load with the least amount of vertical possible. My home range only goes to 300 yards. My general rule of thumb is that a load at 300 yards need to hold 1inch or less vertical in the Group. It must due this for 2 10 shot groups. The load MUST be repeatable!

I don't worry so much about the left to right in the group. It's all about vertical in F-class. Not group size. I would do your initial load development at 100 yards using Erik's test or something similar. Then once your close work your way out farther, if you have access to a range. The 3 or 5 shot 100 yard groups don't tell you much. The only thing they are good for is bragging. I have seen so many guys show me a (.1 or .2) 5 shot group at 100 yards and then they shoot at 1k and are shooting 9 ring to 9 ring vertically.

In F-Class it's all about group size. A small group will have small vertical and small horizontal.

I do all my load development at 100 yards and it has served me well. I can test out to 1,000 yards but because of the conditions my test were always inconclusive. At 100 yards, you are testing the load, any further out, too much is involved that influences results.

 

[KT]

I may differ from others in group relevance. When I'm working on loads. I want the load with the least amount of vertical possible. My home range only goes to 300 yards. My general rule of thumb is that a load at 300 yards need to hold 1inch or less vertical in the Group. It must due this for 2 10 shot groups. The load MUST be repeatable!

I don't worry so much about the left to right in the group. It's all about vertical in F-class. Not group size. I would do your initial load development at 100 yards using Erik's test or something similar. Then once your close work your way out farther, if you have access to a range. The 3 or 5 shot 100 yard groups don't tell you much. The only thing they are good for is bragging. I have seen so many guys show me a (.1 or .2) 5 shot group at 100 yards and then they shoot at 1k and are shooting 9 ring to 9 ring vertically.

In F-Class it's all about group size. A small group will have small vertical and small horizontal.

I do all my load development at 100 yards and it has served me well. I can test out to 1,000 yards but because of the conditions my test were always inconclusive. At 100 yards, you are testing the load, any further out, too much is involved that influences results.

I guess we will agree to disagree, but pretty sure that the National teams qualification process is who can shoot the best vertical not the best group!

 

[Erik Cortina]

I may differ from others in group relevance. When I'm working on loads. I want the load with the least amount of vertical possible. My home range only goes to 300 yards. My general rule of thumb is that a load at 300 yards need to hold 1inch or less vertical in the Group. It must due this for 2 10 shot groups. The load MUST be repeatable!

I don't worry so much about the left to right in the group. It's all about vertical in F-class. Not group size. I would do your initial load development at 100 yards using Erik's test or something similar. Then once your close work your way out farther, if you have access to a range. The 3 or 5 shot 100 yard groups don't tell you much. The only thing they are good for is bragging. I have seen so many guys show me a (.1 or .2) 5 shot group at 100 yards and then they shoot at 1k and are shooting 9 ring to 9 ring vertically.

In F-Class it's all about group size. A small group will have small vertical and small horizontal.

I do all my load development at 100 yards and it has served me well. I can test out to 1,000 yards but because of the conditions my test were always inconclusive. At 100 yards, you are testing the load, any further out, too much is involved that influences results.

I guess we will agree to disagree, but pretty sure that the National teams qualification process is who can shoot the best vertical not the best group!

Yes, that's true, but the coach has to do the rest. Points are lost in all direction, if you have a load that shoots flat but shoots wide, you will not do well in F-Class.

 

[Down South]

I may differ from others in group relevance. When I'm working on loads. I want the load with the least amount of vertical possible. My home range only goes to 300 yards. My general rule of thumb is that a load at 300 yards need to hold 1inch or less vertical in the Group. It must due this for 2 10 shot groups. The load MUST be repeatable!

I don't worry so much about the left to right in the group. It's all about vertical in F-class. Not group size. I would do your initial load development at 100 yards using Erik's test or something similar. Then once your close work your way out farther, if you have access to a range. The 3 or 5 shot 100 yard groups don't tell you much. The only thing they are good for is bragging. I have seen so many guys show me a (.1 or .2) 5 shot group at 100 yards and then they shoot at 1k and are shooting 9 ring to 9 ring vertically.

In F-Class it's all about group size. A small group will have small vertical and small horizontal.

I do all my load development at 100 yards and it has served me well. I can test out to 1,000 yards but because of the conditions my test were always inconclusive. At 100 yards, you are testing the load, any further out, too much is involved that influences results.

I guess we will agree to disagree, but pretty sure that the National teams qualification process is who can shoot the best vertical not the best group!

Yes, that's true, but the coach has to do the rest. Points are lost in all direction, if you have a load that shoots flat but shoots wide, you will not do well in F-Class.

I agree, i want a load that shoots tight vertical and horizontal........Points get lost in all directions, not just vertical.

 

[suberjc]

Well most of my conclusions are experiencial. I've heard the "Don't worry about horizontal" theories my self. I recently moved to FTR for a bit (Now back to Open.) I bought into it and didn't worry when my groups cut a 2 in horizontal slot at 300. Then at the Palo Alto Regionals I dropped a lot of points with absolutely FLAT vertical. Some of it was misreading the wind I'm sure but I can assure you that most of it was not concerning myself with group size. I know the difference. I'm now doing the group size thing again. I like what Erik said about a small group means small vertical. It's like shooting for 10s. If you hit the X, you pretty much got the 10 covered.