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F-Class Nationals Lodi, Wi

I didn't take an official survey, but I'd say that most of the shooters that actually showed up and participated in this years FNC's found it to be acceptable.

What I find to be completely unacceptable is the nonparticipants that show up here to bash it. If you have a better plan Greg, by all means implement it. As I see it, if you don't have first hand knowledge, you don't have a dog in the fight.


It's true that I did not attend. However, I spoke with friends that were there on several occasions during both the MR and LR matches to hear their take on how things went. I didn't just start doing this yesterday, and I think I have a pretty reasonable idea of how things went. As far as not having a dog in the fight, that's pretty ridiculous. Everyone that competes in F-Class should have an interest in how this works out over time, because sooner or later it's going to impact them directly. I don't recall my opinion on this topic ever being solicited by whomever actually makes the decisions. Nor am I aware of anyone I personally know whose input was sought out prior to making the decisions. If you can tell me exactly who IS making these decisions, I will gladly contact them directly. Until that time, I have just as much right as anyone else that participates in this sport to express my opinion, and this forum happens to be one of the only places I have to do that. So I will continue to express my opinion regardless of whether you or anyone else likes it.
 
Were is the bulletin report on the lr nationals? You did a mid range report after a couple days.Where can we see the complete match results ? Something is fishy here
 
Were is the bulletin report on the lr nationals? You did a mid range report after a couple days.Where can we see the complete match results ? Something is fishy here
Long range individual finals are posted on page 10 of this thread. Nothing is hidden.
 
Were is the bulletin report on the lr nationals? You did a mid range report after a couple days.Where can we see the complete match results ? Something is fishy here

If you are referring to the accurateshooter bulletin, I'd say he's waiting for the the actual, official results to be posted, instead of a bunch of half focused images. So far as I am aware, the complete, official results have not yet been posted anywhere.
 
Kind of funny one of the top guys does not win in f/open and f/tr and there is no report.Brian Lizt won the mid and next day you had mid range match results and a very detailed report .

Matt,
What sort of conspiracy do you think is being suppressed here?
 
It's true that I did not attend. However, I spoke with friends that were there on several occasions during both the MR and LR matches to hear their take on how things went. I didn't just start doing this yesterday, and I think I have a pretty reasonable idea of how things went. As far as not having a dog in the fight, that's pretty ridiculous. Everyone that competes in F-Class should have an interest in how this works out over time, because sooner or later it's going to impact them directly. I don't recall my opinion on this topic ever being solicited by whomever actually makes the decisions. Nor am I aware of anyone I personally know whose input was sought out prior to making the decisions. If you can tell me exactly who IS making these decisions, I will gladly contact them directly. Until that time, I have just as much right as anyone else that participates in this sport to express my opinion, and this forum happens to be one of the only places I have to do that. So I will continue to express my opinion regardless of whether you or anyone else likes it.

I believe Earl Liebetrau was the match director and he certainly is the one who drove the use of electronic targets. He is a hell of a guy and absolutely has been interested in feedback. I gave him the suggestion for a 7 second delay at Raton last year and was happy to see it implemented....well at least they attempted to implement it...gotta get the technical details fixed. Greg, you are one of the top shooters in the country and many of us want your input. Please DO contact Earl with your concerns, they certainly mirror mine. I know plenty of top shooters who are not enthralled with E-targets..as they are currently implemented. So, here's a suggestion: Get the problems fixed and stop dog piling on people when they express legitimate concerns or suggestions for improvement. As the current reigning F-TR champion in several states, I think Greg's opinion holds plenty of weight.

Most of the shooters I know simply want a competition that is conducted in a fair fashion that allows the best shooters to be identified. This thread has documented plenty of gaps that need to be addressed in that regard and my hope is the match directors are willing and ready to make the needed changes.
 
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Mike,
The average age of Team Berger/Bartlein/SEB is 72.67 years and that includes our token young senior who is 62. We are truly a group of "old geezers". The title of which we inherited from JJ Conway the original F-Class old "geezer" of Precision Shooting Magazine fame.
 
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Mike,
The average age of Team Berger/Bartlein/SEB is 72.67 years and that includes our token young senior who is 62. We are truly a group of "old geezers". The title of which we inherited from JJ Conway the original F-Class old "greezer" of precision Shooting Magazine fame.

Everybody knows you old geezers are the best in the business. Lol I've fought your battles against you guys and went down against your collective experience. Your team has been a goal for most teams and each person on it is yet another goal!
Ain't none of us doing this for long without a great wife!
 
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I believe Earl Liebetrau was the match director and he certainly is the one who drove the use of electronic targets. He is a hell of a guy and absolutely has been interested in feedback. I gave him the suggestion for a 7 second delay at Raton last year and was happy to see it implemented....well at least they attempted to implement it...gotta get the technical details fixed. Greg, you are one of the top shooters in the country and many of us want your input. Please DO contact Earl with your concerns, they certainly mirror mine. I know plenty of top shooters who are not enthralled with E-targets..as they are currently implemented. So, here's a suggestion: Get the problems fixed and stop dog piling on people when they express legitimate concerns or suggestions for improvement. As the current reigning F-TR champion in several states, I think Greg's opinion holds plenty of weight.

Most of the shooters I know simply want a competition that is conducted in a fair fashion that allows the best shooters to be identified. This thread has documented plenty of gaps that need to be addressed in that regard and my hope is the match directors are willing and ready to make the needed changes.

I don't know about that...I've enjoyed a modest amount of success, but that's a much different thing than competing in National level matches. Frankly, the use of e-targets is one of the major things that kept me from attending Nationals this year. I totally understand that e-targets are going to be the future at many venues, whether I or anyone like it or not. Further, I absolutely believe that the vast majority of hiccups that surfaced in their use during FCNCs at Lodi will be resolved.

This technology, by virtue of increasing match pace, can clearly allow venues with a much smaller total number of firing points to host large events such as FCNCs. However, when a large number of competitors combined with the use of e-targets at a smaller venue necessitates 6 (or more) relays, it lengthens the shooting day back to what it was the old way, or even longer, which seems somewhat counter-productive to me. It also increases the possibility that squadding in the context of significantly changing conditions during the course of a long day can potentially affect the outcome of the match.

This will likely need to be taken into consideration in the future and it may become necessary to squad shooters in a manner that may differ from how it has typically been done in the past. For example, in a 3 -day (individual) match with 6 total relays, one approach would be to have every shooter squadded once in each of the Relay 1/2, Relay 3/4, and Relay 5/6 groups, regardless of their scores or relative position on the match leaderboard. That way, everyone would have to shoot at fairly similar times during the day one time during the match, which seems about as fair to me as it can be made. That is certainly no guarantee that Relay 1/2 (for example) would have relatively benign conditions on all 3 days; we simply can't control that. However, in many venues the clear trend is for the wind conditions to generally pick up through the late afternoon. For someone that was primarily squadded in Relay3/4 and/or 5/6, that would generally be considered to be a disadvantage over the course of a typical match. Even though here may be matches with conditions that don't fit the average trend, over the long haul, if every shooter is squadded once (each) on an early, middle, and late relay, regardless of their position on the leaderboard, I think the chances that they will shoot in fairly comparable conditions over the course of the whole match will be improved. I can imagine that might not sit well with some people, but if the use of e-targets at large matches held at ranges with a limited number of firing points continues to require very long shooting days, I don't see any other way to do it.

Scott, can you PM me if you happen to have Earl's contact info? Forgive my ignorance, but I don't have his contact info.
 
Thank all of you for entering into this discusion. The problems with thar we encountered with thr wi-fi you can rest assured it will be taken care of.I do not work in that dept but I will be sure that it willl be taken care of had we known that it was not going to work well it would have been fixed.
As for squadding there was a number of ways considered the one thjat I would hav perfired was 2 shooters place there gear on the line in the same time period side buy each. One relay would shoot and than the other relay would shoot as soon as the first shooter compleated at the compleation than they would clear the line and relay 3&4 would move up in the same manner as 1&2 did. this would save quite a bit of time. It was done that way in califorina when they held the championships.
The reason that it was not done that way wich would have preserved the realys staying together but at the mid range we tried to get that acomplished but most of thecompetitors resestad the ider of sharing the firing point with another.i Very seldom adopt another countrys system but in this case it works well and saves many houres on the range. when we could be enjoying a tall cool one of your choice.
I think that ih av most of the threads about the match. wich I take very sersosly. One other Item that I do not see mentioned here is the time that is being alowed to fire I personaly think that there is 30 min. allowed to fire in f-class shooting. Ithink it should be limited to 1min. pershot. If i thought That i wouldent get tared and feathered I would change the times to 25min per string with unlimited sighters and to 22min per string for 2 and 20.
Another thing that will be taken care of will be the hole behind the low end of the thousand yd line.

Also the reason you do not see me post on the fourm is my spelling is terable and i did not listen when I was in school. so please excuse my spelling.if you people doint make to much fun of me i might answer your questions.
EARL LIEBETRAU

E-MAIL Earlekl@mwt.net
 
Thanks for participating, Earl... I won't make fun of you. Here's my question to you: why are F-Open and F/TR squadded on the same relay at Lodi?

Thanks again,
Ian
 

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