F-class FTR 6BR class

[DBLTAPN]

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2014/05/little-cartridge-that-could-6brs-dominate-roanoke-egg-shoot/
Note 8 yo long range shooter!

I agree with the 156 gr cap and take the argument to the next level
I propose a 6mmBR FTR class.
155 argument has been made so I will speak as to why I want a 6BR FTR class.

1. LOW Cost and Low Time investment in case/ load prep. etc Reloading with cheap bullets, and brass and barrels that last forever.

B. Low recoil /percussion/sound blast All my kids would compete in F-class 600 yards with my 6mmBR ---however none would shoot my 155 308 100 times age around 10 yo. and they would prob rank well esp if we had a 18 under class. Perhaps a separate 223 (not lumped with 308) class would have a similar effect. (save your comments they will compete eventually however tiger can golf at 6 yo why can't my kid shoot f class in a standard class)
Real life first person shooter (olympic style not zombie style) at the range with family friends in friendly (competitive) competition. Our shooting sports need new young shooters and lots of them. I have a dream ....ok sorry

3. Bipod (FTR) type rules so we are actually holding/shouldering the gun and reading the wind/mirage.

600 yrd ballistics are pretty good and In my state 600 yrd ranges way way out number 1000 yrd ranges
Perhaps more OTC rifle in 6mmbr would hit the shelves
low cost low time low recoil = lower mean age and increase in number of (all age) shooters

 

[memilanuk]

What 156gn cap? There is none, at least not in US NRA matches, nor ICFRA (international/world) level, not for F-Class.

For sub-Juniors like your kids... just get them out there shooting something. Don't worry about what class they're in - they'll have plenty to wrap their heads around without worrying about whether they are F-O or F/TR. Once they get to where they can put rounds down the middle in calm conditions (might be sooner than you think) take them some place with (a little) wind and let them get their feet wet. They'll be fine.

If you want 'em to shoot bipod, have 'em shoot a .223 to start. I've seen more than one kid that was hell on wheels with a .223 Rem @ 300, 500 & 600yds once Dad set 'em up and turned them loose, making sure to *not* tell them how 'disadvantaged' they were. As in, to the point where a lot of adults didn't even want to shoot at the same tournaments with 'em because they shot *that* well.

Similarly... if you have a warm-n-fuzzy for a 6 BR... have 'em shoot a 6 BR. Put a bipod on it if you want. Perfectly legal for F-Open.

Don't really see a need to go and tweak the existing categories in either case.

Either way... proposing anything on a random internet forum doesn't really mean much. Get a local club to start a category like that, and see if it builds interest. If it does, see if you can spread it to other clubs. If it prospers, then maybe see if the NRA will make a separate class of it. But it needs to grow from the bottom up, due to actual participation, not because someone got it mandated from the top down. Lots of 'ideas' out there like that, all claiming to be the key to 'growing' the sport... but they almost always fail miserably because they lack the grass-roots support to make a viable go of it.

YMMV,

Monte

 

[DBLTAPN]

Hey great points Monte,
I will try the 223 =new barrel new dies...
I hate the $$$ race with open class (good for the sport bad for my marriage)
FTR is starting to feel like open with 215gr hybrid larger chamber March scope $1,000 rest
zero 223's placed 1,2, or 3 at the 2014 Nationals
223 in the long run will be good for wind reading and shooting skills for the kid's but they have the deck stacked against them shooting against the heavy 308's so should 223 and 308 be separate categories?
good points again
Carl
warm n fuzzy?
6BR quotes from Lynn and Dr. Salazar
http://www.6mmbr.com/QuoteArchive.html

 

[Erik Cortina]

So, you say your kids have the deck stacked against them shooting against .308's, don't you think the minute the rules change to allow 6BR's all the .308 shooters will start shooting 6BR's?

All shooters had the deck stacked against them when they started, but the winners kept at it and got better. They didn't propose changing the rules to make it easier for them to win.

I'm not even going to comment about the different classes for .223 and .308

And by the way, this has been discussed before and it did not go well. It was proposed by a new shooter whom thought the game was "unfair" to new shooters.

 

[RStewart]

What 156gn cap? There is none, at least not in US NRA matches, nor ICFRA (international/world) level, not for F-Class.

For sub-Juniors like your kids... just get them out there shooting something. Don't worry about what class they're in - they'll have plenty to wrap their heads around without worrying about whether they are F-O or F/TR. Once they get to where they can put rounds down the middle in calm conditions (might be sooner than you think) take them some place with (a little) wind and let them get their feet wet. They'll be fine.

If you want 'em to shoot bipod, have 'em shoot a .223 to start. I've seen more than one kid that was hell on wheels with a .223 Rem @ 300, 500 & 600yds once Dad set 'em up and turned them loose, making sure to *not* tell them how 'disadvantaged' they were. As in, to the point where a lot of adults didn't even want to shoot at the same tournaments with 'em because they shot *that* well.

Similarly... if you have a warm-n-fuzzy for a 6 BR... have 'em shoot a 6 BR. Put a bipod on it if you want. Perfectly legal for F-Open.

Don't really see a need to go and tweak the existing categories in either case.

Either way... proposing anything on a random internet forum doesn't really mean much. Get a local club to start a category like that, and see if it builds interest. If it does, see if you can spread it to other clubs. If it prospers, then maybe see if the NRA will make a separate class of it. But it needs to grow from the bottom up, due to actual participation, not because someone got it mandated from the top down. Lots of 'ideas' out there like that, all claiming to be the key to 'growing' the sport... but they almost always fail miserably because they lack the grass-roots support to make a viable go of it.

YMMV,

Monte

All good advice.
I'm also one of those folks that shoots a .223 in FTR. Out to 600 yards (farthest I've shot) it will hold its own with the .308.

 

[Scott Harris]

DBLTAPN, You mentioned wanting to allow your kids to be competitive, low recoil, 600 yard matches. the 223REM in F-TR meets all those requirements with ease. My 11, 13, 17 year old boys routinely whoop all the 308s in mid-range matches. If you think the 223REM is not competitive in mid-range matches, you have not been watching carefully. Now at 1K things are different. But, you could still be competitive going to a 1:7 twist with Berger 90 VLDs....if you could find them.

 

[Brad from ND]

I am getting tired of seeing people proposing rule changes and whining because the rules don't suit their "needs". There seems to be a lot of people trying to change FTR to be able to shoot the gun that they want in the class. There is already a class for that.......Open. People complain that they would have to change their rifle to compete.....so what. Why should the rules be changed so you can compete. The rules are clearly stated and if you have a gun that doesn't fall into those rules for the class you want to shoot in, then it is you own fault.

If we changed the rules to accommodate every idea about what would benefit each shooter, we have 1000 amendments and be shooting open class off sticks instead of a rest. There is nothing in the rules that says you can't shoot Open off a bipod, so the class everyone is proposing already exists.....it's just that is isn't the class that you want to shoot in. Tough! It's already there, shoot in it.

Rant off.....

 

[savageshooter86]

Take them and shoot. You getting them into shooting to make it a career or to have fun and learn the sport? I got into this as a hobby not thinking I had to win and set records. And when I shoot good it makes it more fun. Even I do bad, it is still fun

 

[Dgd6mm]

ALL these post have been spot on... I built a .308 for Mid and LR F/Class last year, and like it. I got away from my accurate race cartridge to learn more and become a better shooter. Since then, this year after all the post that I've read about the .223 for 300 yards out to 1000, I put 1 together. What a hoot this thing is to shoot. It is for 300 to 600 and I use the .308 for 1000 yards. The .223 in my opinion is the way to go it will serve your kids well, they will more then likely shoot Master or High Master scores when it is all said and done. It works for me, and I'm just a big kid.... ;D

 

[Laurie]

There seems to be a lot of people trying to change FTR to be able to shoot the gun that they want in the class. There is already a class for that.......Open. [Brad from ND]

Just so! Actually, I hear very few people who actually compete in F/TR wanting any changes. It's the guys currently outside of both F/O and F/TR who want to shoot their rifles in F-Class of some description, but believe that their rifles will be uncompetitive in Open. So ... let's change F/TR to let us in they say while claiming it'll benefit the discipline somehow. Poppycock!

Anyway, I think a lot of these people whould get a shock as soon as they came up against many existing .223R and .308W users, especially in short to mid range competitions! I've seen 308 F/TR shooters take first place overall many times in comps up to 600 yards and occasionally at 800 yards too.

 

[Brad from ND]

There seems to be a lot of people trying to change FTR to be able to shoot the gun that they want in the class. There is already a class for that.......Open. [Brad from ND]

Just so! Actually, I hear very few people who actually compete in F/TR wanting any changes. It's the guys currently outside of both F/O and F/TR who want to shoot their rifles in F-Class of some description, but believe that their rifles will be uncompetitive in Open. So ... let's change F/TR to let us in they say while claiming it'll benefit the discipline somehow. Poppycock!

Anyway, I think a lot of these people whould get a shock as soon as they came up against many existing .223R and .308W users, especially in short to mid range competitions! I've seen 308 F/TR shooters take first place overall many times in comps up to 600 yards and occasionally at 800 yards too.

That's what I was getting at. The people in FTR don't want to change, it's other people wanting to change TR so their gun will meet the new rules. Trust me, if 6BR was allowed in TR, I would be the first guy to shoot it. I'm not a fan of the 308. It is good at everything, but great at nothing. However, to shoot in the class I want to shoot in, I shoot a 308. I never have and never will try to change the rules, I accept them and build accordingly.

 

[Jay Christopherson]

There seems to be a lot of people trying to change FTR to be able to shoot the gun that they want in the class. There is already a class for that.......Open. [Brad from ND]

Just so! Actually, I hear very few people who actually compete in F/TR wanting any changes. It's the guys currently outside of both F/O and F/TR who want to shoot their rifles in F-Class of some description, but believe that their rifles will be uncompetitive in Open. So ... let's change F/TR to let us in they say while claiming it'll benefit the discipline somehow. Poppycock!

Anyway, I think a lot of these people whould get a shock as soon as they came up against many existing .223R and .308W users, especially in short to mid range competitions! I've seen 308 F/TR shooters take first place overall many times in comps up to 600 yards and occasionally at 800 yards too.

Yep. The majority of guys who have mentioned it to me are wanting to be able to shoot their "tactical" style 6.5 Creedmore, or .260 or 6.5-whatever in F-T/R, having never actually considered building (or better yet, just switch barrels) a .308 to shoot the class as it's defined. When you suggest that they can shoot their rifles as-is, all they want, but be squadded into F-Open, you get a laundry list of whining about how they can't compete in Open due to Open as a division being "unfair" because it's "just benchrest on the ground", which I find a bit laughable.

I've seen a couple of excellent .223 driver's smoking guys at the line, especially at mid-range.

 

[XTR]

I agree with the 156 gr cap and take the argument to the next level

What 156gr cap are you talking about? Unless you are shooting in IFCRA on your elbows it does not exit.

I propose a 6mmBR FTR class.
155 argument has been made so I will speak as to why I want a 6BR FTR class.

F-TR means F-Target Rifle as defined in the international rules, (see IFCRA mentioned above). As defined therein it is 308Win or 223Rem and their metric equivalents. Don't call it F-TR, it's not.

1. LOW Cost and Low Time investment in case/ load prep. etc Reloading with cheap bullets, and brass and barrels that last forever.

B. Low recoil /percussion/sound blast All my kids would compete in F-class 600 yards with my 6mmBR ---however none would shoot my 155 308 100 times age around 10 yo. and they would prob rank well esp if we had a 18 under class. Perhaps a separate 223 (not lumped with 308) class would have a similar effect.....

You want low recoil at 600 yards quit trying to introduce a new class and shoot a 223Rem. Shooting 90VLDs a 223 will shoot within a bullet diameter either way of a 308 running 185s, and 75gr bullets will shoot w/i half an inch per MPH of full value wind. If you want your kids out there shooting put them on a Savage F-TR with a 223 barrel and have at it. Way cheaper than your [insert latest idea to create a new class here] caliber with less recoil and cheaper, and no need to change the rules. I shoot thousands of rounds of F-TR a yr (and I shoot a whole lot heavier than a 155.5) and I'm building a 223Rem for mid range. There really is no reason not to shoot a .223 unless you just like recoil or you only have one gun.

 

[johara1]

I think they already have something in place, it's classes. You shoot with subpar equipment or ability you will not be competing at the top. So shoot your 308 or BR. and compete in the lower classes and be happy. …… jim

 

[Laurie]

You want low recoil at 600 yards quit trying to introduce a new class and shoot a 223Rem. Shooting 90VLDs a 223 will shoot within a bullet diameter either way of a 308 running 185s, and 75gr bullets will shoot w/i half an inch per MPH of full value wind. [XTR]

I agree. I've not had my 223s out in a match for maybe a year now. The run up to the F-Class Worlds at Raton last August mandated concentrating on .308 and I sort of lost the .223 habit after returning from sunny NM.

.223 Rem has never gained traction in F/TR in the UK. People here just don't believe how well the cartridge will perform, or maybe don't want the workload in making 90 VLDs shoot well. A shame! More power to your collective US, Canadian and Australian elbows in making it a success in your countries.

I've got a couple of samples of new Swiss high-energy powders to test which are proving very successful in .308 Win, but one of which might just rekindle my enthusiasm for .223 / 90 as well. We'll see when I try it at short range next week. Luckily I still have plenty of 90s, Berger LRBTs and VLDs from JLK and Berger plus Berger 80.5s back from when you could actually get such items here. What we cannot get is VarGet - no chance of a delivery to Europe until at least 2015 we're told and I'd switched to the powder from Re15 after a few pressure problems with the latter. I'm hoping my new trial powder will provide a replacement, in fact got my fingers crossed it'll be an improvement.

 

[xswanted]

I am getting tired of seeing people proposing rule changes and whining because the rules don't suit their "needs". There seems to be a lot of people trying to change FTR to be able to shoot the gun that they want in the class. There is already a class for that.......Open. People complain that they would have to change their rifle to compete.....so what. Why should the rules be changed so you can compete. The rules are clearly stated and if you have a gun that doesn't fall into those rules for the class you want to shoot in, then it is you own fault.

If we changed the rules to accommodate every idea about what would benefit each shooter, we have 1000 amendments and be shooting open class off sticks instead of a rest. There is nothing in the rules that says you can't shoot Open off a bipod, so the class everyone is proposing already exists.....it's just that is isn't the class that you want to shoot in. Tough! It's already there, shoot in it.

Rant off.....

Agree completely brad.

The only thing that would be fun to see is maybe a "hunter class" 22 cal and under. It happens at the local level here as you know but it'd be cool to see all over. Under 10lb gun, 2 lb minimum tigger stuff like that. It'd be pretty fun and maybe grab a few more people that would eventually upgrade to open or ftr

I jumped right into open and was competitive right away. Build a gun and go. I agree, don't whine about the rules.

 

[DBLTAPN]

1. Spirit of bylaws as I see should be =f1 and stock car like with open and ftr stock would be one caliber 223 fine 223 it is
2. Low recoil ease of tune so bullets easily go where your wind read placed them
Is awsome for new young shooters 6br ftr would do this better then 223
See Dr. Salazar again in this article

http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com/2012/03/cartridges-223-for-palma-competition.html?m=1
Dis the 223 as finiky not easy to tune etc
I will reluctantly buy 223 bolthead shell holders etc
No pressure Scott to start a 6br ftr league and are u shooting 223 or 308 in ftr?

 

[Scott Harris]

We shoot 223 for 600 and in. Shoot 308 for long range 800+.

 

[Steveb]

Hi Guys.

I am very concerned about this and proposed a new suggestion to the DCRA (Canada's NRA) which governs F-Class matches here last month.

My concern is the type and quality of equipment we all use and the time to put a rifle together. Right now a barrel takes about one year to get and bullets are about the same. How do we attract new interested shooters if it is going to take a years plus planning just to get equipment and supplies? I see good potential people come to matches, become interested and then turn off when they find out the reality of getting involved because there are very few suitable factory rifles. Even those take a long time to get. Try to order a Savage F-Class rifle!!

Secondly, we have an issue with the length of the ranges we have easy access to here. Most of British Columbia's ranges are under 600 meters (660 yards). If a guy shows up with a varmint type rifle and lower powered scope he is shooting against some radical F-Open rifles chambered in whiz bang cartridges or 308's using heavy bullets requiring long throats.

My suggestion was to define a mid-range cartridge limit of say 6.5 x 47 Lapua for open and 223 for F-TR. Anything under would be scored as normal with no changes while anything over would not be scored at all. Somebody could bring any rifle out but only those within the limitations could turn in a score for prizes. I feel natural forces would soon drive out the bigger calibers in the shorter ranges and make those fun again. No limitations for shooters to shoot but no score allowed for long range cartridges. For long range events there would be no limitations.

My thought for the 223's would be limit the barrel twist to 1 in 9. This would limit the bullets to about 75 grains and no amount of money spent on custom barrels could over come the disadvantages of the lighter bullets in the wind. Also limit the scope power to 24 power because this is the most common upper power of the high powered scopes.

Between the twist and scope limitations there are many choices of factory rifles available. I have seen some pretty accurate factory .223's shooting up to 75 grain bullets.

Anyway, this is what I have been thinking to increase the amount of new shooters without creating "new divisions" and running within the classes we have while bringing back the fun of shooting on the short ranges.

Right now we have matches where some people won't go simply because it isn't worth their time because it is too short!

Steve

 

[Laurie]

Hi Steve.

(Must email you -been putting it off for months!)

What you need is someone like our Mik Maksimovic who with the help of Peter Hobson (Hobson Industries, a major engineering contractor to the UK defence industry) created The Dolphin Gun Company which only builds precision target rifles. Mik and Peter are mainstays of the GB F-Class scene and both shoot F/O.

Mik manufactures his own aluminium chassis stocks and offers a kit gun pick-n-mix set-up with a choice of stocks, actions, and barrels (Bartlein, True-Flite and Lilja). The basic F-Class rifle with a Nesika 'K' action costs £2,500 including our 20% government sales tax and mandatory proof-testing. That's around £750 to £1,000 more than an off the shelf Remington 700 PSS rifle here. Despite the requirement to phyisically send rifles to one of the two UK proof houses, Mik turns most rifle orders around in 4 to 6 weeks. Rebarrelling will be the same.

http://www.dolphinguncompany.co.uk/

A different approach is one I've been trying - the 'affordable' F-Class rifle approach using a three pronged approach for F/TR so far.

#1 Use or rebarrel an off the shelf secondhand varminter. In my case a Savage 12 LRPV in .204 Ruger rebarreled with a 1-7.5 Bartlein standard palma profile barrel to .223 and chambered for 90s. With a £105 ($150) Chinese manufactured 8-32X50 target scope, 20-MOA rail and cheap Versa-Pod lockable folding bi-pod this rifle has given me 3rd to 5th F/TR placings in major club comps up to 600 yards with 90gn Berger LR BTs at ~2,650 fps over N150.

#2 a secondhand 308 Varminter - a Howa 1500 plus Chinese scope but limited by a 22-inch barrel but again effective at shorter ranges with 155s. To be rebarrellled with a standard Palma profile 1-13 match barrel I picked up cheap in due course.

#3 the original George Farquarson approach - a secondhand Paramount .308 target rifle using a decent scope here (s/h Sightron 8-32) and bi-pod (an early Spanish Fito-Force bought s/h for £100). Currently waiting on getting a scope rail set-up.

None of this trio including scope, scope rail, bi-pod and rear bag has exceeded the cost of buying a new Remington 700PSS in the UK, although the Paramount gets real close. But ... we have stacks of people queuing up to buy the new AI AT rifle at far higher prices if you believe half the posts on the UKVarminting Forum ... and they'll likely stick £1,500 to £2,000 Schmidt & Benders on them too plus £450 specialist tactical bi-pods.

I now have an afordable F/O club rifle in the works too - a .243 Win Howa Varminter to see what you can do with a 1-10 twist rate in the calibre and the bullet weight limits it mandates.

Most of these projects have been written up in various UK magazines and have helped a few to start F/TR. But the people who bore the pants off you in the bar saying they'd shoot F if only you'd change the rules to .... Well forget it - no interest or a load of excuses when you tell them how to get started.

Re the proposals for change. There is virtually no factory rifle of any type never mind affordable, reasonably precision ones, sold in 6.5X47 Lapua - so it's custom build or nothing unlike .308. The same applies to 6mm BR - only the Savage widely available, and that's more in the catalogues than the dealers here. Also a Savage F or BR costs a great deal of money here, new or secondhand and the barrels are a bit of a lottery. Get a 'dog' as I did with a 6.5-284 Saqvage 12 F-Class and you're at the gunsmith's door wanting prices and times for a rebarrel.

Limiting bullet weights in F/TR? - it's been worked uphill and down dale on forums and only a minority support it. FWIW, I've started with 155s in 308, gone up to 210s and 225s and returned to the 155.5gn Berger and shoot much better for it. I've sold all my heavies off and won't consider anything above 190gn now, and in practice the Berger 168gn Hybrid is my heaviest LR match model. We've looked many times at UK league match results and everything suggests that over the course of a season there is little or no difference between those who use 210s to 230s and the 155gn users. Sometimes the conditions help the heavy bullet user alittle, other times the 155gn shooter has a small advantage.

Limiting .223R twist rates? This fails the KISS test when you have to start checking the hidden bits of people's rifle and ammo specs. Sadly .223 Rem hasn't gained traction in the UK as it is, and this would kill off the few remaining fans. When you run at up to 15-MOA wind adjustments and an 8-MOA range in corrected wind values on the scope across a match as we do in some 1,000 yard matches as we do at Bisley with 223 / 90 and 308 / 155, I wouldn't even bother entering matches with a 223 so heavily limited.

We've had a bunch of adherents of 'factory sporter F/TR' here - a lot of talk, few actually running comps and competing. The FS F/TR zealots hate the (highly successful) existing discipline so much that factory single-shot semi-precision rifles are banned (must be repeaters with working magazines), have scope power restrictions much lower than you suggest, barrel length and overall weight restrictions, and 'Harris type' folding bi-pods are mandatory. If it ever takes off, how long before somebody discovers that a top of the range Sako 85 or similar is unbeatable that has a two year waiting list and costs the same as one of Mik Mak's Dolphin starter F rifles you have in you hands in six weeks?