Experienced analysis appreciated - .223 load development rookie

[Sieg]

The last time I loaded for CF rifle was in the 80's so basically I'm starting from scratch. Tikka Varmint T3x .223 1:8T.

This is my first attempt at load development for the gun, thus the .4-.5g charge splits. Rifle and myself have shot sub .5-.6" 5 and 10 shot groups with FGMM 69SMK's comfortably.

Here's the loads and target from today. What is the target saying to the experienced eyes here?

Temp was upper 40's, winds 3-4mph, and barrel was given 5+ mintues between 3 shot groups to cool.

 

[D-4297]

Helped a friend develop a 223 load for his rifle , and found Benchmark to be a decent powder for that round . 24gr should be a reasonable starting point . If I remember correctly , his load came out to 25gr. The only problem we found with the Benchmark was that it has a very narrow load window , from 24gr to 26.5gr max .

Went and checked my book . His load was 25gr of Benchmark , at standard Mag length . It shot excellent groups at 100 yrds.

 

[dolek]

In my experience 3 shots does not tell you much . I would also go to .2 to .3 grain increments . Does that card say a jump of 81 ? Are they loaded to mag length ,hence the 2.250" COAL ?

 

[MikeMcCasland]

In my experience 3 shots does not tell you much . I would also go to .2 to .3 grain increments . Does that card say a jump of 81 ? Are they loaded to mag length ,hence the 2.250" COAL ?

This.

You're jumping in too large of an increment. Nodes in the .223 are ~.3-.4gr wide, meaning you're likely skipping right over them. I'd load in .2gr increments.

The 3 shot stuff can be done by experienced loaders/shooters that have a good idea of where the nodes are, but often times for new guys you really want to be shooting 5 shots (or more) to get a better idea of performance.

Perhaps just as important is your depth. You need to first identify your lands touch depth (using an OAL tool that clips to your calipers, or the 'wheeler method'). Then use a bullet comparator, and start ~.020" off the lands while you run your powder tests.

To recap:
1.) Identify lands touch depth.
2.) Load .020" off.
3.) Re-run powder tests in .2gr increments.
4.) identify stable vertical nodes
5.) load in the middle of that vertically stable powder node, and work depth from .005" off, working back in .005" increments until it bugholes.
6.) Profit.

Edit: Misread. You're not shooting 80s. 2.25 is probably fine, because you may not be able to touch the lands with a 53gr. Still, would be worth checking out.

Regardless, you'll want to do depth work the same once you identify the powder node. You'll probably end up seating it out 2.3" (assuming you can't touch lands in that barrel) and working back in .005 or .010" increments until you find an ideal depth.

 

[Sieg]

In my experience 3 shots does not tell you much . I would also go to .2 to .3 grain increments . Does that card say a jump of 81 ? Are they loaded to mag length ,hence the 2.250" COAL ?

I used 3 shots as an initial rough test and planned on .2 next. Jump is .081", COAL was based off book spec as a starting point. Loads will be used for varmint hunting, max mag length is 2.560".

The rifle shoots FGM 69SMK's very good (10 shots @100 .60" ctc) the 69's COAL is 2.257" and jumping .0715".

 

[Bc'z]

@MikeMcCasland & @daleboy nailed it
My 223 60gr vmax load with Tac is 24.7gr
wsrp, starline brass @ 2.26".
I moved away from Tac and load a lot of benchmark FWIW.
Edit
If you make it down this way I'd be more than happy to lend you a hand.
Range is 2 miles from loading bench.

 

[Coyotefurharvester]

Benchmark has been very good with the 53 gr vmax, out of several 223's(Savage,TC,Bushmaster).

 

[Texas10]

Are you using a chronograph? Your speeds seem quite slow.

I was able to get groups in the zeros and ones out of a stock Savage 9 twist model 12FV using the 53gr V-Max seated .020 off and IMR3031, a good old fashion extruded powder that's not temps sensitive and CCI 400. With the 53 V-Max you're looking for velocities of around 3350 fps.

Adding to what Mike has suggested, and echoed by others, I'd suggest you reduce your target size, increase contrast and shoot at least 24X magnification on your scope as I suspect aiming errors are playing a role. Perhaps also parallax. You're drawing a horizontal line through your targets which is the best way to set up. Now connect the dots of your impacts and find the average center of each group. Chart the distance and angle from the Point of Aim. You're looking for 3 groups in a row with slightly increasing charges that hold about the same distance from the POA.

You might also consider buying some good quality brass. I've seen Lake City brass on sale recently.

Make sure your cleaning regiment is getting the copper fouling out. If you can't visually verify the bore is clear of all fouling, your groups may be influenced by copper buildup, or carbon build up in the throat which may explain the flattened primers at mild charge weight. The new Teslong borescope camera is both inexpensive and excellent at video imaging the internals of your barrel. Best $50 you'll ever spend.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07TTQF24F/?tag=accuratescom-20

 

[Sieg]

This.

You're jumping in too large of an increment. Nodes in the .223 are ~.3-.4gr wide, meaning you're likely skipping right over them. I'd load in .2gr increments.

The 3 shot stuff can be done by experienced loaders/shooters that have a good idea of where the nodes are, but often times for new guys you really want to be shooting 5 shots (or more) to get a better idea of performance.

Perhaps just as important is your depth. You need to first identify your lands touch depth (using an OAL tool that clips to your calipers, or the 'wheeler method'). Then use a bullet comparator, and start ~.020" off the lands while you run your powder tests.

To recap:
1.) Identify lands touch depth.
2.) Load .020" off.
3.) Re-run powder tests in .2gr increments.
4.) identify stable vertical nodes
5.) load in the middle of that vertically stable powder node, and work depth from .005" off, working back in .005" increments until it bugholes.
6.) Profit.

Edit: Misread. You're not shooting 80s. 2.25 is probably fine, because you may not be able to touch the lands with a 53gr. Still, would be worth checking out.

Regardless, you'll want to do depth work the same once you identify the powder node. You'll probably end up seating it out 2.3" (assuming you can't touch lands in that barrel) and working back in .005 or .010" increments until you find an ideal depth.

I agree with the 3 shot. This was a test of my very first loads so I basically wanted to see what the target would show a potential starting point(s) to fine tune from. I have purchased numerous powders, primers, and bullets to experiment with so this is just the beginning of the rabbit hole. There's a lot to learn and experience. With this virus pandemic it looks like our little isolated range will be a good place to spend time.

The horizontal strings somewhat surprised me, so they indicate stable SD's but not ideal jump?

I just got a Magneto Speed V3 w/ a chassis mount so I be able to test velocity in the future. I did not see or feel any pressure signs with TAC load at .4 off book max or the H322 at book max.

Based on the brass and bolt feel I'm guessing can bump the max load in .1g steps until the primer and bolt start indicating pressure signs? I'd prefer lighter loads to minimize recoil and barrel wear, but if it results in the best accuracy it can't be ignored.

FWIW: To determine jump on this rifle I used the stripped bolt method with a fire formed FGM case, then FL sized it with a .001" shoulder bump. I long seated a 69SMK and tested until I had a free falling bolt handle which gave me BTO: 1.861" COAL: 2.257".

This is the work space and test inventory.

I appreciate everyone's time and input.

 

[TheOtherZilla]

There are a lot of good powders for 223. Just have to find the right one. I have 2 AR's and a bolt gun in 223. The bolt gun likes H335 and 52 Sierra BTHP's. One AR likes W748 and 65 Sierra soft points. The other AR like TAC and a 50 Vmax. So keep trying. Your load is out there.

 

[Depart123]

Of the ones you have on the paper, 22-23 is most consistent. I would stay around 23 and try 2.255" and 2.260" seating depth if it were me.

All else has been said about smaller increments.

 

[Sieg]

Are you using a chronograph? Your speeds seem quite slow.

I was able to get groups in the zeros and ones out of a stock Savage 9 twist model 12FV using the 53gr V-Max seated .020 off and IMR3031, a good old fashion extruded powder that's not temps sensitive and CCI 400. With the 53 V-Max you're looking for velocities of around 3350 fps.

Adding to what Mike has suggested, and echoed by others, I'd suggest you reduce your target size, increase contrast and shoot at least 24X magnification on your scope as I suspect aiming errors are playing a role. Perhaps also parallax. You're drawing a horizontal line through your targets which is the best way to set up. Now connect the dots of your impacts and find the average center of each group. Chart the distance and angle from the Point of Aim. You're looking for 3 groups in a row with slightly increasing charges that hold about the same distance from the POA.

You might also consider buying some good quality brass. I've seen Lake City brass on sale recently.

Make sure your cleaning regiment is getting the copper fouling out. If you can't visually verify the bore is clear of all fouling, your groups may be influenced by copper buildup, or carbon build up in the throat which may explain the flattened primers at mild charge weight. The new Teslong borescope camera is both inexpensive and excellent at video imaging the internals of your barrel. Best $50 you'll ever spend.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07TTQF24F/?tag=accuratescom-20

Thanks Texas10,

I will be using a new MS V3 in the near future, it's currently configured for my Vudoo V22 and I've yet to use it. I'm thinking rimfire is the best place to start the chrono learning process.

The target was a new test, contrast wasn't ideal in overcast, in bright sun it would have been better than glaring white butcher paper. I needed to use a larger Sharpie to define the square. The bullet did cut good defined holes in that paper and it should also do well in the rain. I also print targets on 8.5 x 11 heavy card stock that works well for rimfire testing.

Here's yesterdays setup:

Optic is a Athlon Ares ETR 4.5-30 x56 that was set in the 26-28 range. POA on target was bottom point of the square.

Regarding brass, I'm using private labeled Rim Rock which I believe is older Norma brass as Rim Rock was located near the Nosler facility in Bend, OR. I have over 4K rounds of once fired from my varmint hunting. I also have over 6K Lake City cases from the Black Hills 50-55g V-Max Blue Box I used to shoot.

Regarding barrel cleaning, I use a Teslong to indicate and confirm barrel/chamber conditions. Dewey rods, bore guides, Tipton bronze brushes, Southern Bloomer patches, VFG felt pellets, and Bore Tech products. JB pastes sparingly if needed or as directed by barrel supplier.... like the 22" Krieger from Compass Lake I just installed in my AR15.

I keep a log book with each rifle noting session round counts, cleaning details, setup changes, etc.

 

[Texas10]

Thanks Texas10,

I will be using a new MS V3 in the near future, it's currently configured for my Vudoo V22 and I've yet to use it. I'm thinking rimfire is the best place to start the chrono learning process.

The target was a new test, contrast wasn't ideal in overcast, in bright sun it would have been better than glaring white butcher paper. I needed to use a larger Sharpie to define the square. The bullet did cut good defined holes in that paper and it should also do well in the rain. I also print targets on 8.5 x 11 heavy card stock that works well for rimfire testing.

Here's yesterdays setup:

Optic is a Athlon Ares ETR 4.5-30 x56 that was set in the 26-28 range. POA on target was bottom point of the square.

Regarding brass, I'm using private labeled Rim Rock which I believe is older Norma brass as Rim Rock was located near the Nosler facility in Bend, OR. I have over 4K rounds of once fired from my varmint hunting. I also have over 6K Lake City cases from the Black Hills 50-55g V-Max Blue Box I used to shoot.

Regarding barrel cleaning, I use a Teslong to indicate and confirm barrel/chamber conditions. Dewey rods, bore guides, Tipton bronze brushes, Southern Bloomer patches, VFG felt pellets, and Bore Tech products. JB pastes sparingly if needed or as directed by barrel supplier.... like the 22" Krieger from Compass Lake I just installed in my AR15.

I keep a log book with each rifle noting session round counts, cleaning details, setup changes, etc.

Looks to me like you've got your bases well covered. Nice equipment, well organized and stocked loading bench, lot's of good quality components, private range. Obviously not your first rodeo.

I think once you've got your velocities up to speed, you'll see a big improvement in groups.

 

[rsmithsr50]

may I suggest you change your target / aiming point.
a simple 3 or 4 inch plus sign( just like your crosshairs)
much simpler to keep squared up for the shot. better shot to shot reliability.
nothing wrong with 3 shot groups IF it is a known powder bullet AND the steps are small enough to see changes.
honestly nothing looks great on that target.
may I suggest a simple 12-15 step ladder.
one target 15 shots in .2 grain steps.
log each shot at a similar target at the bench.
look for spots where elevation holds for 2 or 3 shots
re shoot in 3 shot groups where it looked good then adjust length.
of you can shoot on the lands length ammo, please start there.

 

[Sieg]

Looks to me like you've got your bases well covered. Nice equipment, well organized and stocked loading bench, lot's of good quality components, private range. Obviously not your first rodeo.

I think once you've got your velocities up to speed, you'll see a big improvement in groups.

I bought most of that RCBS equipment in 1984 when I bought a Ruger M77 Varmint in 22-250..... regretfully I'm still kicking myself for selling that well made rifle years ago.

I never did much paper shooting, only time was to dial a scope in and verify ammunition zero. Though I've started shooting two 100/200y matches a month, one rimfire and one centerfire, as they're both good groups of guys to compete against. Varmint hunting is what I really enjoy and drives my quests for 100-400yd accuracy. Side note: I took my Hunters Safety course at that range in 1968 at age 10.

Back in the 80's reloading wasn't nearly as complex as is today, so I'm taking the 'best to relearn everything' approach. Forums definitely make the learning curve quicker.

Again thanks to all for the insight and information.

 

[rebs]

what could be causing the horizontal stringing ?

 

[Sieg]

may I suggest you change your target / aiming point.
a simple 3 or 4 inch plus sign( just like your crosshairs)
much simpler to keep squared up for the shot. better shot to shot reliability.
nothing wrong with 3 shot groups IF it is a known powder bullet AND the steps are small enough to see changes.
honestly nothing looks great on that target.
may I suggest a simple 12-15 step ladder.
one target 15 shots in .2 grain steps.
log each shot at a similar target at the bench.
look for spots where elevation holds for 2 or 3 shots
re shoot in 3 shot groups where it looked good then adjust length.
of you can shoot on the lands length ammo, please start there.

That target was a one-off test, mainly for paper weight and glare reduction. When I get the next batch of ammo loaded up I'll be using a different target pattern.

Nothing looked great, considering how well the rifle shoots FGM 69SMK's, but I've learned quite a bit from those 30 rounds already.

Regarding on the lands, my goal is to develop an explosive .5 moa load for the Tikka and my newly re-barreled AR15 I've used shooting Coors Light can sized digger squirrels with since 1992. The Tikka is 1:8T and the new Krieger barrel on the AR is 1:7.7T and I wanted to see how those twist rates would work with lighter bullet weights. Hopefully I can find a good 50-55g load, the 60 VMax should be fine.

I will also be working up some heavy boat tail loads to try and defeat the crazy swirling quick-shifting winds at our 100/200y range which also shoots over a substantial creek at about 70yds from the benches..... it's brutal shooting rimfire there. Even when running multiple sets of flags a given condition can't be trusted and only last a few seconds. The FGM 69SMK's do decent at 200, but I bought some Berger 80g VLD's to try. I should be able to get on the lands with those.

So many rabbit holes, so little time.

 

[Webster]

I used 3 shots as an initial rough test and planned on .2 next. Jump is .081", COAL was based off book spec as a starting point. Loads will be used for varmint hunting, max mag length is 2.560".

The rifle shoots FGM 69SMK's very good (10 shots @100 .60" ctc) the 69's COAL is 2.257" and jumping .0715".

Sounds like a good load. Why experiment more.

 

[rsmithsr50]

try Hornady v nax bullets, 50/55/60
2 of my ar's love them..as in .204 at 100/5shots in a 14 twist, about 1/2 in a long throat 1/ 7.
2230 powder

That target was a one-off test, mainly for paper weight and glare reduction. When I get the next batch of ammo loaded up I'll be using a different target pattern.

Nothing looked great, considering how well the rifle shoots FGM 69SMK's, but I've learned quite a bit from those 30 rounds already.

Regarding on the lands, my goal is to develop an explosive .5 moa load for the Tikka and my newly re-barreled AR15 I've used shooting Coors Light can sized digger squirrels with since 1992. The Tikka is 1:8T and the new Krieger barrel on the AR is 1:7.7T and I wanted to see how those twist rates would work with lighter bullet weights. Hopefully I can find a good 50-55g load, the 60 VMax should be fine.

I will also be working up some heavy boat tail loads to try and defeat the crazy swirling quick-shifting winds at our 100/200y range which also shoots over a substantial creek at about 70yds from the benches..... it's brutal shooting rimfire there. Even when running multiple sets of flags a given condition can't be trusted and only last a few seconds. The FGM 69SMK's do decent at 200, but I bought some Berger 80g VLD's to try. I should be able to get on the lands with those.

So many rabbit holes, so little time.

 

[Sieg]

Here's what I'm thinking for the next loads.

60g VMax w/TAC WinSR same 2.250 COAL
22.6
22.8
23.0
23.2 (previous horizontal flat line POI)
23.4

Thought is this would split the first two groups, confirm the previous 22.8g load which measured .437"ctc, and split the two horizontal groups.

53g VMax w/H322 WinSR same 2.260 COAL
23.3
23.4
23.5 Book Max
23.6
23.7

This tests to either side of the 5th group which measured .281"ctc and showed no pressure signs.

Also, when it comes to maximum COAL with the .223 is the rule of thumb to seat at least the diameter of the bullet in the case neck? Flat base bullet actual surface contact area, and boat tail length not included?

Your thoughts please!